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Author Topic: Couple of cargo questions  (Read 4269 times)

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2018, 04:28:09 PM »
I think at this point, its more a case of competition or lack thereof. Flying huge cargo routes by yourself, yeah, your going to bank just as you would flying pax by yourself.

I started to post something similar.  I think MuzhikRB's suggestions would mean more regulations, less cargo supply / suppliers, which would mean less competition.  At this point, supply for cargo is too low, there is a lack of competition.  We just need to wait 5+ years, by which time supply should catch up with demand, and we will see what happens with Cargo airlines and Cargo margins.

Offline Helix

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2018, 04:29:44 PM »
I'd say pricing is good the way it is. In most cases demand is very one-sided with no demand on the return-leg. As soon as competition enters through pax aircraft, covering small and medium cargo (I've seen up to 10:1 or more), the only thing left is heavy cargo. When that also gets split around various airports it really does not leave much profit.

That said, the CBD system works and I sure hope it get's implemented for pax traffic in GW4. If not, we'll have to wait around 8 months before the chance of it getting implemented in a long term scenario. (I assume pax CBD will not be introduced for running gameworlds?)

Offline Talentz

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2018, 04:48:35 PM »
Yeah, I agree, JS.

~ Also players need to start looking at max payload range for the aircraft's they choose. Don't pick an aircraft that is payload or volume limited to the destinations your flying and wonder why the other player(s) are making more money.

For nearly a decade AWS has been solely a pax only calculation and max payload range was an afterthought. Now, its the key to success. What worked before cargo... doesn't work as well now.


Talentz

ps: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,74876.0.html
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2018, 04:54:45 PM »
I'd say pricing is good the way it is. In most cases demand is very one-sided with no demand on the return-leg. As soon as competition enters through pax aircraft, covering small and medium cargo (I've seen up to 10:1 or more), the only thing left is heavy cargo. When that also gets split around various airports it really does not leave much profit.

Good point.  I mentioned it earlier to Infinity.  Cherry picking a route that has unmet demand that is balanced, both ways as a standard for Cargo would likely lead to wrong conclusions, since it is not a representative sample.

That said, the CBD system works and I sure hope it get's implemented for pax traffic in GW4. If not, we'll have to wait around 8 months before the chance of it getting implemented in a long term scenario. (I assume pax CBD will not be introduced for running gameworlds?)

I agree.  CBD has proven to be fantastic!

I think some informational pages (for airport, route planning) need to be upgraded to make it easier for the players to visualize what is going on with CBD.

As far as extending CBD to passengers - I am not sure if would not be better to implement connectivity (on Cargo first).  Destroying current Pax hubs without ability to recreate hubs may not be the best sequence.  I think it would be better to add cargo transfers first, as a test vehicle, that could be added to existing game worlds without too much disruption.

Offline Helix

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2018, 05:25:19 PM »
Destroying current Pax hubs without ability to recreate hubs may not be the best sequence.  I think it would be better to add cargo transfers first, as a test vehicle, that could be added to existing game worlds without too much disruption.
Ah yes, I forgot this would be much more critical for pax operations. It would probably prohibit any LH operations since that traffic gets channeled through the hubs. (not counting the obvious trunk routes)

Offline SP7

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2018, 06:40:46 PM »
I think freight breaks down like pax into 2 categories.

SH/domestic US freight seems fine. It made the 757 relevant again - although it remains to be seen whether or not the 733/734F will eat its lunch. Regardless the cargo volume and prices seem fine as there’s usually a good amount of competition from belly cargo that eat into light/standard loads.


LH cargo is ludicrously profitable. A 7-day scheduled freighter with no competition will easily make more profit than a 7-day scheduled pax aircraft, often 2-3x as much.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2018, 07:10:55 PM »
I think freight breaks down like pax into 2 categories.

SH/domestic US freight seems fine. It made the 757 relevant again - although it remains to be seen whether or not the 733/734F will eat its lunch. Regardless the cargo volume and prices seem fine as there’s usually a good amount of competition from belly cargo that eat into light/standard loads.


LH cargo is ludicrously profitable. A 7-day scheduled freighter with no competition will easily make more profit than a 7-day scheduled pax aircraft, often 2-3x as much.

Re: LH Cargo

I think players are taking a while to figure this out and get into this market (and it is extremely slow and costly to start an undeveloped LH Cargo flight from RI=0).

For example, to this day, probably the most fantastic and versatile aircraft for LH cargo (for many airports) - 767-300F is far less utilized then it should be.

So you can't really judge present situation, where everyone started totally inexperienced, and draw conclusions about how to change the game based on that.  Those monopoly LH Cargo routes will get oversupplied quicker in future game worlds.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2018, 07:16:25 PM »
Just FYI on LH Cargo:

Just started flying to some new destinations, and here are my Week 1 LFs to 6 new destinations:
0.6
0.7
0.8
1.4
1.6
1.7

All solidly in the red.  So when you see an anecdote of some fantastic profitability from Day 1 on a new route, it is anomaly rather than the rule.  The rule is that it is slow and painful, but eventually very rewarding.

Offline Helix

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2018, 07:40:39 PM »
SH/domestic US freight seems fine.

An airline I observe in GW1 is running US domestic cargo and he probably will not survive. Light and medium cargo is covered by passenger aircraft and heavy cargo is not enough to survive on (apparently).

Running one set 7-day 727-100F on US domestic routes myself only yields 100k per frame, which is what a passenger 727-100 makes on heavy competition. I have those freighters running for 1 year now and it was really not worth the conversion. I basically play around with them and just let them run to annoy the competition for testing.

If we had connections though, a central US hub would basically make this a whole different game.

Offline johndd1

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2018, 07:44:47 PM »
Its a mix of both.

Cargo handles a bit differently then Pax in that its more heavily dependent on RI. It's less forgiving then pax.

As for the calculation, it handles much like AWS 1.2. Its favors frequency alot. Price is not as big a factor as some would think. There's some favoring of CI as well. It allocates to whatever is supplied. If no aircraft capable of carrying HC, HC will transfer to SC or LC, depending on whats supplied. This applies to SC and LC. Cargo shifts to whatever the supply is based off its update.

From this, we can conclude so far:

Frequency controls cargo; Pax airlines will mostly likely win on LC and SC. Unless your willing to match frequency.

HC can only be taken by LG and VLG freighter. Since cargo re-allcates to whatever is supplied, Its typical (thus far) that putting a freighter on a route can max the HC demand on that route. While pax airlines will claim most of the LC and SC, all or most of the HC will be flown by you.

Since HC is the most profitable cargo and your taking most, if not all, chances are your making more money on the cargo side then the pax airlines.



Talentz

I've been wondering about frequency with regards to cargo and CBD...When we talk about frequency, are we talking about number of times we fly to a specific airport, or number of times we fly to a specific region or catchment area?

If there are six airports within a given catchment area or region and I fly to each of them once daily. Is that the same, more or less, as flying to one of those airports six times daily?

Understanding that not all potential demand at one airport is the exact same potential demand at a neighboring airport, but there IS some overlap in those two potential demand figures. Some of that demand just wants to go from A to B and doesnt care which airport provides that service.

If that basic assumption is correct, more or less, then if I fly once to both the airports in question, then that overlapping cargo would see two potential flights available, right?

As an example, I fly to Kennedy and La Guardia each once daily with HC supply. MY opponent flies once daily only to Kennedy, with no flights to any other NY-area airports. Are he and I competing only for the Kennedy cargo and therefore each have only one flight, or are he and I competeing for essentially ALL the NY-area cargo (or at least a lot of the same potential cargo) in which case I have more frequency than he does?

Hopefully this question makes some sense and isnt too dumb...

Offline Sami

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2018, 09:12:29 PM »
If there are six airports within a given catchment area or region and I fly to each of them once daily. Is that the same, more or less, as flying to one of those airports six times daily?

If all six airports share the same area then you make more sense in flying to a single destination to cover the whole area.

Check the manual / city based demand for 2-airport explanation example on this.

Offline Slurve30

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2018, 12:11:23 AM »
I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out cargo supply/demand.  So I determined on passenger routes, a freighter has hard time competing with passenger jets since you lose out on light and medium size cargo due to frequency.  However heavy cargo is completely untapped. 

That said, I have a few cargo routes in GW#3 where cargo heavy demand is maxed out, and I have a freighter with the range (or tech stopped to have the range), but cannot capture 100% of the heavy cargo per flight.  Why is that?  If I have no competition on a route for heavy cargo, shouldn't even one flight per day capture all of the heavy demand on that flight?

I have RI of 100 and CI of 90 on all routes in question.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2018, 11:15:20 AM »
it's called life 8-) Shouldn't your girlfriend love you unconditionally, shouldn't the car start every time you turn the key, shouldn't your kids tidy their rooms every day, shouldn't mobile phone bills be easy to understand etc.

I guess the real question is - what can I do to get all that cargo waiting for me. And it looks like you've done everything possible. So much like the items above, accept a less than optimal outcome and find the next profitable niche...

8-) Simon

Offline tyteen4a03

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2018, 01:58:54 PM »
I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out cargo supply/demand.  So I determined on passenger routes, a freighter has hard time competing with passenger jets since you lose out on light and medium size cargo due to frequency.  However heavy cargo is completely untapped. 

That said, I have a few cargo routes in GW#3 where cargo heavy demand is maxed out, and I have a freighter with the range (or tech stopped to have the range), but cannot capture 100% of the heavy cargo per flight.  Why is that?  If I have no competition on a route for heavy cargo, shouldn't even one flight per day capture all of the heavy demand on that flight?

I have RI of 100 and CI of 90 on all routes in question.

Routes from nearby airports maybe?

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2018, 02:05:22 PM »
That said, I have a few cargo routes in GW#3 where cargo heavy demand is maxed out, and I have a freighter with the range (or tech stopped to have the range), but cannot capture 100% of the heavy cargo per flight.  Why is that?  If I have no competition on a route for heavy cargo, shouldn't even one flight per day capture all of the heavy demand on that flight?

I have RI of 100 and CI of 90 on all routes in question.

If this is "Actual" demand for Heavy Cargo, and you are the only one serving the route, with Heavy Cargo capacity, you should be picking up pretty much all of it, if RI is 100, and your pricing default.

Offline MidWorld

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2019, 06:32:55 PM »
Sorry, if I am posting a newbie question, but I got confused.

I just read that very large combi aircraft can carry heavy cargo now. The manual confirms this:

                            Light Cargo (CL)   Medium Cargo (CM)                                   Heavy Cargo (CH)
Passenger aircraft   Allowed                   Allowed if aircraft is at least class Large   Not allowed
Cargo-only aircraft   Allowed                   Allowed if aircraft is at least class Medium   Allowed if aircraft is at least class Large
Combi aircraft           Allowed                   Allowed if aircraft is at least class Large   Allowed if aircraft is at least class Very Large

However, the same manual, as well as the route editing page says that heavy cargo cannot be carried by the pax aircraft:

Heavy cargo (CH) can only be transported by dedicated freighter aircraft.
For non-freighters the Heavy cargo allocation is automatically converted to other types


Well, if they are combi, aren't they pax/cargo kind of combi?

I started a few routes for a test, and I carry no cargo on LH DC-10-40CF. Hmm.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2019, 07:30:05 PM »
This would be a manual error, then. Sami probably updated the aircraft page regarding cargo, but not the cargo page regarding aircraft.
Because I can assure you that my MD-11C carry a good lot of HC :)
The issue with your -30CF is probably elsewhere. Payload/range is good?
Remember that the nominal range of combis (well, all planes carrying pax, in reality) is without any cargo capacity.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:40:19 PM by Tha_Ape »

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2019, 09:38:04 PM »
I think we're into "set" theory. There's a class of planes called pax, a set called cargo and a set called combi. Combi can carry passengers, but are in the combi set not the pax set, and the set's are mutually exclusive and do not mingle. So the manual is correct. The fact a combi-type aircraft can carry passengers does not make it a passenger-type aircraft. Passenger aircraft can carry cargo, but are not cargo aircraft!

Simon

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2019, 09:39:57 PM »
I think we're into "set" theory. There's a class of planes called pax, a set called cargo and a set called combi. Combi can carry passengers, but are in the combi set not the pax set, and the set's are mutually exclusive and do not mingle. So the manual is correct. The fact a combi-type aircraft can carry passengers does not make it a passenger-type aircraft. Passenger aircraft can carry cargo, but are not cargo aircraft!

Simon

Alright. Still, I think my post was understandable :)
Edited it nonetheless.

Offline Maxair

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Re: Couple of cargo questions
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2019, 01:21:17 PM »
My A340-600s are absolute cash cows. Theyre more profitable by almost 1 mil/wk then my best 7 day scheduled 330-200f. I think with Combi versions being able to carry HC coupled with players figuring out the optimal payload formula for their operation, it will put even more pressure on cargo only ops.

 

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