Couple of cargo questions

[JumboShrimp]

No, cargo does not roll over to the next day (or pax).  It was discussed as a feature to be added later.

[knobbygb]

I don't think so. I'm pretty certain it's modeled in the same way as pax.  It would make sense though - i.e that's how it happens in the real world, but it's just not how the game-engine works.  In the real world, the same would be true for pax. too - they would just choose to fly on the days when a flight was available, thus increasing demand on those days. I think it would require a pretty big redesign of that part of the game engine to do this. (EDIT: sorry, just saw the other reply).

[Infinity]

Not sure if this has been raised since I am back after a long hiatus, but cargo is absolutely broken. Needs a fare slash by at least 50% - the profit margins that are possible with cargo are just ludicrous. A couple of years back when I had monopolized LHR in a game my best planes on routes where I had the default fares about doubled turned close to 4 million in profits per week. Now I can make the same on default cargo rates in an MD-11F with 50% loads.

[JumboShrimp]

Not sure if this has been raised since I am back after a long hiatus, but cargo is absolutely broken. Needs a fare slash by at least 50% - the profit margins that are possible with cargo are just ludicrous. A couple of years back when I had monopolized LHR in a game my best planes on routes where I had the default fares about doubled turned close to 4 million in profits per week. Now I can make the same on default cargo rates in an MD-11F with 50% loads.

Hey there, long time no see 

Agreed.  I think the pax default prices were reduced a bit too much and cargo default prices are too high.  Some fine tuning is needed.

[gazzz0x2z]

Hey there, long time no see 

Agreed.  I think the pax default prices were reduced a bit too much and cargo default prices are too high.  Some fine tuning is needed.

But cargo is hard. LF are very low with small RI, conversions are a lengthy process, and for the use of fleet groups that are outdated for carrying pax. Fine tuning won't be easy at all. Currently, most cargo pure players BK very quickly, and those who survive are doing margins than no pax- player can dream about.

[MikeS]

I agree, that starting up a cargo operation is a lot harder than a pax operation. But once established, the profit margin is really crazy. I'm flying an old fleet of DC8s
and making crazy amounts of money. There is not so much competition at this point because many haven't ventured into this field yet. I assume, it will get more
competitive in the future, driving profit margins down again. In any case, it made the game more interesting. Looking forward to more freighter and combi aircraft.

Cheers!

[Infinity]

But cargo is hard.

Not sure if I can agree there. I was on the way to bankruptcy after 9/11 and all I had cash left over for was a moonshot at a cargo plane. That single cargo plane pulled my otherwise unprofitable 40 A320 operation out of the hole in no time. That's not how I think it should work. I used it on a completely new route btw, with 0 RI.

[JumboShrimp]

Not sure if I can agree there. I was on the way to bankruptcy after 9/11 and all I had cash left over for was a moonshot at a cargo plane. That single cargo plane pulled my otherwise unprofitable 40 A320 operation out of the hole in no time. That's not how I think it should work. I used it on a completely new route btw, with 0 RI.

Interesting...  Because most of the cargo routes tend to lose money between RI of 0 and 90, while actual demand is shifting toward your route..  At least with bigger aircraft.

Unless you are extra lucky and start flying route where the actual demand has already shifted to the route you are flying.  That alone can take 1-2 years (about 4,000 kg per month, if you want to fill up 100k, it is 24 months). in addition (in parallel) to RI.

My first MD-11F flight in this game world started with 650k loss, just on the aircraft (per week).  On top of that, there is staffing and route marketing (to cut the losses short) which amounted to well over $1 million loss per week the first week I was flying the aircraft.  LFs were in low single digits.

[Tha_Ape]

One not-even-newbie-yet question about that fact: is the RI the same for pax and cargo, or do we have to build a new RI even if flying the route with pax for years?

[Infinity]

Unless you are extra lucky and start flying route where the actual demand has already shifted to the route you are flying.  That alone can take 1-2 years (about 4,000 kg per month, if you want to fill up 100k, it is 24 months). in addition (in parallel) to RI.

Could very well be that was the case, I don't know anything about the mechanics of how cargo works in the game. But still looking at the top margin players in GW#3 right now the results of established cargo ops are beyond the pale.

[JumboShrimp]

One not-even-newbie-yet question about that fact: is the RI the same for pax and cargo, or do we have to build a new RI even if flying the route with pax for years?

It is the same RI for cargo and pax.  Cargo just seems more sensitive to RI then pax.

[JumboShrimp]

Could very well be that was the case, I don't know anything about the mechanics of how cargo works in the game. But still looking at the top margin players in GW#3 right now the results of established cargo ops are beyond the pale.

I did agree earlier that the I think Sami turned the dials for default pax prices too low and default cargo prices too high.  I think they should be fine tuned a bit.

As far as profitability, you will see players in the "first world", tapping markets in other "first world" countries.  Those can be very profitable (competition may erode the profits).  But more typically, most of the cargo is one way, and nearly empty returning, as players expand to more marginal markets.

[MuzhikRB]

My cargo planes are already printing money at routes with RI 30-50.

I think that cargo planes should be moved to separate AC fleets group. it must be mostly impossible to run both pax and cargo company without sacrificing something. Like flying long haul and cargo, but sacrificing MH and SH demand.

otherwise players at cargo hubs like FRA/HKG etc. would have colossal advantage from others.

Currently in GW3 in FRA. Cargo company with 43 planes has more income than 523 AC company from USA.
if we look at his fleet choice - he can easily now spam his base with pax plane. he will only need a small tuning to cover pax LH demand.


Another idea:
Why not to implement Cargo only companies?
If at start of the game - player choose to play cargo only company - then he will have special ability:

1. he cannot fly pax and combi planes.
2. Bases amount is limited to 3 (or 4) - needed to test.
3. Player can open 1 base at each of region (Europe/Asia etc...).
4. Time delay between opening next base is 3-5 years.

This will increase worldwide competition between cargo companies from one side, but will allow to make worldwide cargo networks (like Fedex or DHL IRL).

[JumboShrimp]

I think there is an easier way to re-balance the system, but increasing default Pax prices by ~5%-10%, lowering default Cargo prices by ~10%-15%, before any drastic rule changes are implemented.

Also, I think it would be a good idea to first wait for Cargo Transfer ability to see what it does, an how it changes the landscape for Cargo.

[groundbum2]

why bother fiddling with default prices when they are exactly that, default prices! If this game is truly a free market exercise then surely it's up to players to set their own prices and live or die by competition and their cost base etc. Default prices are only there for the lazy who don't want to fine tune their airline to optimise it.

pah! Socialism! 8-) Simon

[MuzhikRB]

I think there is an easier way to re-balance the system, but increasing default Pax prices by ~5%-10%, lowering default Cargo prices by ~10%-15%, before any drastic rule changes are implemented.

Also, I think it would be a good idea to first wait for Cargo Transfer ability to see what it does, an how it changes the landscape for Cargo.

that will not change the fact that cargo hubs based players get more advantage then pax only bases

[JumboShrimp]

why bother fiddling with default prices when they are exactly that, default prices! If this game is truly a free market exercise then surely it's up to players to set their own prices and live or die by competition and their cost base etc. Default prices are only there for the lazy who don't want to fine tune their airline to optimise it.

pah! Socialism! 8-) Simon

1. Price management as implemented, is the weakest area of the system - as far as design and implementation
2. Setting prices to absolute values, while inflation is a moving target does not quite work long term
3. fine tuning 1000+ route pairs individually  does not quite work

BTW, I have not experimented enough with cargo to know the price sensitivity and elasticity

[groundbum2]

new question : GW3, when does cargo supply rise? I've flown some routes for over a year and the supply has not increased one iota, despite my oversupplying the route by +30% and there being +50% "potential supply" according to the charts, and no competitors flying to other nearby airports and siphoning off supply...

Simon

[JumboShrimp]

new question : GW3, when does cargo supply rise? I've flown some routes for over a year and the supply has not increased one iota, despite my oversupplying the route by +30% and there being +50% "potential supply" according to the charts, and no competitors flying to other nearby airports and siphoning off supply...

Simon

What is the route in question?

Most typical answer would be that there are other overlapping airports serving the rest of the demand.

For example, flying cargo to Hethrow - there are other 3-4 airports serving the same catchment area just on the London side.  So you may be competing with another flight(s) that you are not readily seeing (without some more in-depth investigation.

[Talentz]

I think at this point, its more a case of competition or lack thereof. Flying huge cargo routes by yourself, yeah, your going to bank just as you would flying pax by yourself.

Nothing has changed in that regard.

Currently in GW3 in FRA. Cargo company with 43 planes has more income than 523 AC company from USA.
if we look at his fleet choice - he can easily now spam his base with pax plane. he will only need a small tuning to cover pax LH demand.

That would be a similar situation as two airlines from one airport, one going SH and the other LH. If there's no competition on either end, one gets the short end of the RPK.
If you want to compete with a cargo (or mainly cargo) airline, you have to fly freighter aircraft or aircraft with alot cargo space. Otherwise, its a moot point.

Talentz