It’s time for a serious convo about sale leasebacks and cash transfers

[Amelie090904]

well, first of all, airlines would still be able to move out of alliance for example, to get some "subsidies". secondly, an airline that is - lets call it "endangered - usually is endangered because it has some old/inadequate/inefficient aircraft in service; when it can sell these to another airline for a higher price than what its actually worth (because they are in the same alliance, or maybe the ceos just like each other or for whatever reason): that is called a money transfer in my opinion.

i know, your two-rule proposal is simple, it would solve a lot of mischief going on, but it is bandaid on a wound what would need by now a few stitches. not saying it is not a good stopgap measure, but i think if we want to rethink the used market and give the game some extra game-play-value, we should think a bit more outside the box.

- Leaving an alliance should/could be followed with a loss of CI for the airline that leaves the alliance. This should stop/hinder people from doing it. Maybe a CI loss of 20 or 30 points.
- The system itself should/could track repeated sales between the same airlines (alliance members or not) and then my first proposal would come into play (don't allow sales/leases back to the same airline within a given amount of time, just like it is not allowed to scrap immediately). To avoid further cheekiness, we could extend this proposal to not only the same 2 airlines, but ALL airlines within an alliance. The plane would have to be kept for a given amount of time before it can be forwarded to another member airline.
- Selling old scrap metal would still be allowed, BUT the plane needs to have a purpose (same as current rule)

In my opinion, (1) freezing the price of the plane after the first sale; and (2) introducing a "minimum time" before it can be sold/leased back again will help to stop 90% of the current madness.

[DanDan]

- Leaving an alliance should/could be followed with a loss of CI for the airline that leaves the alliance. This should stop/hinder people from doing it. Maybe a CI loss of 20 or 30 points.
- The system itself should/could track repeated sales between the same airlines (alliance members or not) and then my first proposal would come into play (don't allow sales/leases back to the same airline within a given amount of time, just like it is not allowed to scrap immediately). To avoid further cheekiness, we could extend this proposal to not only the same 2 airlines, but ALL airlines within an alliance. The plane would have to be kept for a given amount of time before it can be forwarded to another member airline.
- Selling old scrap metal would still be allowed, BUT the plane needs to have a purpose (same as current rule)

In my opinion, (1) freezing the price of the plane after the first sale; and (2) introducing a "minimum time" before it can be sold/leased back again will help to stop 90% of the current madness.

yes, well, i think it is not a bad measure, but as you point out yourself: there is additional mechanics needed. i think it was einstein who said, always try to make it as simple as possible, but NEVER simpler than necessary. and the game is complex, so i am afraid the gamerules need to be as well.

just regarding point 2: then at least there should be a sell-lease-back option where one can sell and lease back at the same price directly, because otherwise there is no point in sell-lease-back options (whats the point of a sell and lease back if you have to wait two years until you can lease back the plane after all...) [which would fit with the "other possible improvements" in my post though and make life much easier for a lot of people as well]

[Amelie090904]

- selling aircraft directly from the production line (so to save the delivery times)

With this, I would also like an option like "deliver plane to airline X" while ordering the planes. I could thus order 50 Baade 152 for someone and have them delivered to this player. Obviously the player would get a notification where the player needs to "accept/decline" the delivery (imagine the trolling otherwise...). I am really sick and tired of putting hundreds of planes on the UM if I could just tell the system to "deliver to this guy at book value / recommended price". Saves so much time. Same with "bulk listings" (select all planes, list at book/recommended to airline X).

Yes, there are lots of things than can be done on the UM. But this thread is about how to avoid cheekiness and I still think my 2 proposals would work best and are rather easily implemented. Since the price would be frozen, we can actually avoid the "minimum time" to lease back. I just thought of it as an additional measure to avoid "rescue missions". Does not need to be 2 years, but what about a quarter or two...you know: "Staff is busy arranging the planes". This works with everything! 

[Jake]

- Leaving an alliance should/could be followed with a loss of CI for the airline that leaves the alliance. This should stop/hinder people from doing it. Maybe a CI loss of 20 or 30 points.

20-30 points loss is so insignificant that it's almost irrelevant at this point, should be dynamic where if your CI is above 85-90 you loose 50-75 CI, and you should not be able to re-join any alliances in a set period of time, say 10 years.

Also you should not be able to see any listings from the airlines in said alliance for a set amount of time, say 1 year.


Anything but a harsh penalty that could bankrupt you is just a bandaid...

[swiftus27]

This is slightly separate from the ongoing conversation but I did offer my services upon the completion of the current game world I am in to help arbitrate/deal with some of these issues when they arise so they can be properly nipped in the butt right away instead of letting them linger.    Sami politely declined, to be honest.   It's his game after all and I can't complain. 

[Amelie090904]

20-30 points loss is so insignificant that it's almost irrelevant at this point, should be dynamic where if your CI is above 85-90 you loose 50-75 CI, and you should not be able to re-join any alliances in a set period of time, say 10 years.

Also you should not be able to see any listings from the airlines in said alliance for a set amount of time, say 1 year.


Anything but a harsh penalty that could bankrupt you is just a bandaid...

Actually yes, agreed.

[Todorojoz]

Interesting is that you guys have for everything an answer except for the part where make fun of others which have nothing to do with the game.
That is acceptable?

Desrt air has over 2 bln in current assets, so the funds are definitely there to buy big sum of 15 to 20mln  a plane.
No middle man needed.

This is just an escape route as you guys are catched.
And Egypt competition have enough funds to survive fuel spike

I do have cash, but I also need to eventually modernize my fleet. That $2b can buy me about 85 B737-800s. It doesn't go far. I would rather continue to lease older planes in order to save up to buy newer planes when I have the money. But I do still need to expand.

[Aero]

@swiftus:
Current assets are liquid cash and prepaid expense.
No current orders at Desert air so it is all cash,the planes could go directly from W air to Desrt air as 2.2bln is available.

So if Andre,Arrowhead buys the planes from W AIR and lease out to Desert is money laundry.
W air could lease out directly to Desert but need the money,no other explanation can be made then this(if W AIR goes bankrupt leases stay trough AI brokers).
and this is not 1 or 2 planes but 100+planes.
This is a big money injection into W AIR. 100x14mln is?

From the beginning of this game Elite members made press releases about me,while i just play a game with succesfull start.
Those press releases had nothing to do with the game and just make fun out of me.
This is not normal game play and try to bully me away.
Also in PM's.
It is time heavy penalties come for this like bankrupt an airliner in the game or block in total and that the game become fun for everyone and all this maddness will end.

[Binary11]

"An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller for a higher amount than it has been sold for"

That one would be enough so solve the whole problem I think!!

Totally agree

[Binary11]

@swiftus:
Current assets are liquid cash and prepaid expense.
No current orders at Desert air so it is all cash,the planes could go directly from W air to Desrt air as 2.2bln is available.

So if Andre,Arrowhead buys the planes from W AIR and lease out to Desert is money laundry.
W air could lease out directly to Desert but need the money,no other explanation can be made then this(if W AIR goes bankrupt leases stay trough AI brokers).
and this is not 1 or 2 planes but 100+planes.
This is a big money injection into W AIR. 100x14mln is?

From the beginning of this game Elite members made press releases about me,while i just play a game with succesfull start.
Those press releases had nothing to do with the game and just make fun out of me.
This is not normal game play and try to bully me away.
Also in PM's.
It is time heavy penalties come for this like bankrupt an airliner in the game or block in total and that the game become fun for everyone and all this maddness will end.

With all respect Aero and Swiftus this is a debate about what rules we think need changing not about slinging Mud. Lets try to leave the personal stuff to one side and concentrate on the future of the game.

[swiftus27]

I made this post originally without any mud slinging in mind.   Seemed to hit some soft spots. 

When it comes to press releases, you'll all see I have been poking fun at all aspects of the game and not individual airlines..... but mainly the weather.

[Amelie090904]

@swiftus:
Current assets are liquid cash and prepaid expense.
No current orders at Desert air so it is all cash,the planes could go directly from W air to Desrt air as 2.2bln is available.

So if Andre,Arrowhead buys the planes from W AIR and lease out to Desert is money laundry.
W air could lease out directly to Desert but need the money,no other explanation can be made then this(if W AIR goes bankrupt leases stay trough AI brokers).
and this is not 1 or 2 planes but 100+planes.
This is a big money injection into W AIR. 100x14mln is?

From the beginning of this game Elite members made press releases about me,while i just play a game with succesfull start.
Those press releases had nothing to do with the game and just make fun out of me.
This is not normal game play and try to bully me away.
Also in PM's.
It is time heavy penalties come for this like bankrupt an airliner in the game or block in total and that the game become fun for everyone and all this maddness will end.

Maybe everybody makes fun of you because you just annoy everyone to death and are called "Flying Green" with a big dollar symbol on your livery while having lost like what, 50bn company value in 2 years? Ever thought about that? It is not the first time you accuse Elite members of cheating, money laundry or whatever other buz word you come up with. In the end nothing of this is true. As discussed previously, the planes were bought from W Air for book value (not max price) and were forwarded to Desert Air for book value (not minimum price). There was no money being made for anyone. W Air sold them to me for a fair price and I hand(ed) them over to Desert Air for the very same price. No money was being made. In fact, those planes were listed publicly, but nobody bought them. It was not even some sort of "insider deal" or whatever...

Why did Desert Air not get them directly? Simply because he still needed to grow more and prepare for future orders (see above).

Press releases are part of the game and engage people. If you don't like them, just don't read/write them. Some people are actually having fun playing this game, you know?

And penalty in the form of a ban or forced bankruptcy? After suggesting going back to getting 3 planes per week? Sorry, but you provide one ridiculous suggestion after another and do not participate constructively to this topic. If somebody deserves punishment then you for false accusations, just saying.

[JumboShrimp]

Nice hallucinations everyone thinking Sami is going to reprogram the rules after every violation.  You must have not looked at the Bug and Feature request backlog...

Seems like issuing penalty for outright cash transfer violations and moving is the most likely outcome.

[schro]

The issue with making the rule sets locking the leasing price in a sale/leaseback is that it's too easy to do a multi-party transaction to get away with it.

If there's going to be a code change here, I would propose that the only allowed "sale/leaseback" transaction that is allowed would be one calculated by the system (and perhaps even listed in the public used market, almost like an investment). The structure here would need to be disadvantageous to the seller, so a below "market" price sale paired with an above "market" price lease that has a minimum term of some number of years. Any sale/leasebacks made outside of the systemic solution can be tattled on by other players that notice and participating airlines slapped with the appropriate trout.

For example, a DC-87C with a "market" value of $20m would be offered for $10m to the seller with a lease back at the $30m price level for 8 years (no early termination). No need for it to even leave the fleet of the selling airline!

Of course, this doesn't necessarily address the multi-airline transfer of funds scenario, but it should close a significant loop hole...

Those press releases had nothing to do with the game and just make fun out of me.

Since you're (allegedly) new-ish around here, it should probably be said that Press Releases have historically been more comical and jovial in nature than serious. It's not supposed to be anything personal or a directed insult when someone mentions you, your airline, your mother or scribbles on your livery in a press release. You'll often see that those press releases also make fun of the person writing them at the same time. Sure, there's a point where it gets too personal, but that line doesn't often get crossed around here....

[Jake]

it should probably be said that Press Releases have historically been more comical and jovial in nature than serious.

Not to mention the simple fact that Swift is one of the few people using the press releases in the way it should be used, and not just as a way to spam other airlines with the fact that you are selling a freakin plane...

I digress, this is not at all what this discussion is about, so let's all just leave anything not related to the conversation about actual sale leasebacks and cash transfers behind before this thread gets locked, okay?

[swiftus27]

Yet the heavy weather continues .....

[DanDan]

Nice hallucinations everyone thinking Sami is going to reprogram the rules after every violation.  You must have not looked at the Bug and Feature request backlog...

Seems like issuing penalty for outright cash transfer violations and moving is the most likely outcome.

yes, i am afraid it will be a long time until the used market is being fixed - the sad thing about it is, that i have seen quite a few players in the last 5 years leave because of legal/illegal transactions: either because they were too annoyed by the whole accusations or by the fact they got caught or by the fact the market dynamics were changed in ridiculous ways which led their airlines into bankruptcy.

hope sami will soon take the time to fix the UM properly.

[Mort]

It is time heavy penalties come for this like bankrupt an airliner in the game or block in total and that the game become fun for everyone and all this maddness will end.

Or we could just make a new account to try and circumvent our poor prior history 

[Aero]

Maybe everybody makes fun of you because you just annoy everyone to death and are called "Flying Green" with a big dollar symbol on your livery while having lost like what, 50bn company value in 2 years? Ever thought about that? It is not the first time you accuse Elite members of cheating, money laundry or whatever other buz word you come up with. In the end nothing of this is true. As discussed previously, the planes were bought from W Air for book value (not max price) and were forwarded to Desert Air for book value (not minimum price). There was no money being made for anyone. W Air sold them to me for a fair price and I hand(ed) them over to Desert Air for the very same price. No money was being made. In fact, those planes were listed publicly, but nobody bought them. It was not even some sort of "insider deal" or whatever...

Why did Desert Air not get them directly? Simply because he still needed to grow more and prepare for future orders (see above).

Press releases are part of the game and engage people. If you don't like them, just don't read/write them. Some people are actually having fun playing this game, you know?

And penalty in the form of a ban or forced bankruptcy? After suggesting going back to getting 3 planes per week? Sorry, but you provide one ridiculous suggestion after another and do not participate constructively to this topic. If somebody deserves punishment then you for false accusations, just saying.

It doesn't matter if I am profitable or not.
My livery is my livery everyone have livery they like.

I just wrote here what happened.
You already misspoke as before you wrote the planes go to Desert air and now you say he pick them up trough open market,want me to post the earlier screen shot?

The question is when are situation just a business trade and when is financial support
W Air needed the $ as in your earlier statement say they go to desert air.
Normal way is it goes directly and not via another player.
Desert could have leased them directly from W Air.
Now you buy from WAir and lease to desert.
This is the discussion right?
W Air would go bankrupt if not sold the planes and only lease out, right?
Can see this at desert aircraft page.
Is it legal or not.
And if not how to prevent it

[Amelie090904]

It doesn't matter if I am profitable or not.
My livery is my livery everyone have livery they like.

I just wrote here what happened.
You already misspoke as before you wrote the planes go to Desert air and now you say he pick them up trough open market,want me to post the earlier screen shot?

The question is when are situation just a business trade and when is financial support
W Air needed the $ as in your earlier statement say they go to desert air.
Normal way is it goes directly and not via another player.
Desert could have leased them directly from W Air.
Now you buy from WAir and lease to desert.
This is the discussion right?
W Air would go bankrupt if not sold the planes and only lease out, right?
Can see this at desert aircraft page.
Is it legal or not.
And if not how to prevent it

Nope, you keep saying things I never wrote. W Air's planes were listed on the open UM, but did not sell. I bought them while everyone had also the chance to buy them. I then forwarded them at the same cost to Desert Air. W Air's planes would have been bought by the AI eventually, we just sped things up a bit. And again, Desert Air is a young airline with limited funds which he needs to make his own orders of more modern planes. The rule says the planes must have a purpose and that's exactly what we did.