It’s time for a serious convo about sale leasebacks and cash transfers

[Aero]

Don't forget that Swiftus , your partner started this topic fall over 1 or 2 plane trades but we cannot say anything?

Big benefit of this trade is W Air
He received now more money then he would lease out directly to desert air or scrap the planes.
You had 200+ B737-300 stored and then buy 150+more planes while UM has tons of the type.

Have you seen the language used by Swiftus towards 1 of alliance members?
That you call normal?
And 1 of my partners cannot show that to everyone to see what happens?
We try to just play a game and friendly and confrontated with this.
Yes i speak up.

I am done this topic.
Good luck all.

[Amelie090904]

Yes, W Air needed money to survive (which he won't in the end due to inactivity, but that is another story). Leasing the planes out himself to Desert Air would not have provided enough immediate cash. So instead, I bought the planes, provided W Air much needed cash and then forwarded the planes at the very same price to Desert Air since Desert Air did not have the necessary funds to buy them himself (and he also did not really fancy buying old planes if he could just lease them). There is nothing wrong with it as any sale is allowed as long as the plane has a purpuse (which they do since they are/will be flying with Desert Air). It is a classic sell + leaseback, except that the receiver is another airline.

In case of your alliance, we noticed repeated sales at different price levels, meaning money has been transferred back and forth between airline pairs. So rather than a one-time sale or leaseback (which is totally fine) the same plane has been sold back to the initial seller with a big price difference (meaning the only purpose was to generate cash without the plane changing its owner). And it's not the first time this happened in this game world...

In the end, Sami will decide (and I hope he noticed the proposals on page 2/3 to avoid such issues in the future). I am just tired of you constantly attacking us for no reason whatsoever.

[swiftus27]

It doesn't matter if I am profitable or not.
My livery is my livery everyone have livery they like.

I just wrote here what happened.
You already misspoke as before you wrote the planes go to Desert air and now you say he pick them up trough open market,want me to post the earlier screen shot?

The question is when are situation just a business trade and when is financial support
W Air needed the $ as in your earlier statement say they go to desert air.
Normal way is it goes directly and not via another player.
Desert could have leased them directly from W Air.
Now you buy from WAir and lease to desert.
This is the discussion right?
W Air would go bankrupt if not sold the planes and only lease out, right?
Can see this at desert aircraft page.
Is it legal or not.
And if not how to prevent it

Why focus so much on andre and not planes literally bought and sold 600% more than purchase price and scrapped when able to do so?  Care to comment on that at all??  Seems youre fixated on what Andre is doing and its not even topical to this discussion.

[dmoose42]

I'm away for a couple days, and I miss all this fun. I'm so disappointed!!! There is nothing better than another plane trading scandal!

[Binary11]

Don't forget that Swiftus , your partner started this topic fall over 1 or 2 plane trades but we cannot say anything?

Big benefit of this trade is W Air
He received now more money then he would lease out directly to desert air or scrap the planes.
You had 200+ B737-300 stored and then buy 150+more planes while UM has tons of the type.

Have you seen the language used by Swiftus towards 1 of alliance members?
That you call normal?
And 1 of my partners cannot show that to everyone to see what happens?
We try to just play a game and friendly and confrontated with this.
Yes i speak up.

I am done this topic.
Good luck all.

Let me just ask you one question.

Do you think it was acceptable for one of you Alliance members to sell 3 aircraft for $300,000,000 profit because they where going bankrupt to another Alliance member.

Please just answer YES or NO.

[schro]

Please just answer YES or NO.

Name checks out.

[swiftus27]

You mean like:  "hey I'm about to fail.  Does anyone want my fleet of (Plane) before I close my doors?"

[tungstennedge]

Let me just ask you one question.

Do you think it was acceptable for one of you Alliance members to sell 3 aircraft for $300,000,000 profit because they where going bankrupt to another Alliance member.

Please just answer YES or NO.

Binary11 (Binary3) in binary is speaking about 3 aircraft and 3 Hundred Million.

'Illuminati theme plays'

[Zombie Slayer]

I'm away for a couple days, and I miss all this fun. I'm so disappointed!!! There is nothing better than another plane trading scandal!

Second Tuesday of every month. Be there or be square. 

[mp81]

I'm just here for the train wreck this thread has become. Thoroughly entertained. I have a can of gasoline if anyone needs it.

[YoYo]

In my humble opinion....

May be to have a (human) regulator to monitor transaction in each game world would solve the problem.

Knowing that there is regulator in the game would help solve / prevent many unfavorable situations.
In real life, there will be auditors, many organizations monitoring all transactions and make sure things are going as it should be.

We can actually use same concept / setting from "Game mentoring" like "Game Regulator".
At the beginning of the game, everyone can apply for this role so we get as much as neutral people.

Once we have the case, regulator can investigate it and vote their opinion whether there is wrong doing in there

let say if result is more than 80% then, Sami can take further action

[Amelie090904]

In my humble opinion....

May be to have a (human) regulator to monitor transaction in each game world would solve the problem.

Knowing that there is regulator in the game would help solve / prevent many unfavorable situations.
In real life, there will be auditors, many organizations monitoring all transactions and make sure things are going as it should be.

We can actually use same concept / setting from "Game mentoring" like "Game Regulator".
At the beginning of the game, everyone can apply for this role so we get as much as neutral people.

Once we have the case, regulator can investigate it and vote their opinion whether there is wrong doing in there

let say if result is more than 80% then, Sami can take further action

Interesting idea! But who would choose who becomes regulator and who does not? I fear in the end it would be regulators from alliance A vs regulators from alliance B meaning there won't be any conclusion either. I also fear that it would hardly be objective, but that regulators would act in the interest of themselves or their partner airlines. It's a bit like direct democracy. Sounds great, but sometimes the general public is not the best crowd to make a decision.

[YoYo]

Interesting idea! But who would choose who becomes regulator and who does not?

Sure, nothing will be perfect in this world.

I think we would need to trust and be confident in the guy/girl who will be acting as regulator.

Question of how to get the regulator, may be representative from each alliance then same number from non-alliance.
Let say if there is 4 alliance then 4 regulators from alliance plus another 4 from non-alliance member and of course we still have Sami sitting on top. (If alliance disappear then adding more from non-alliance...)

Well, we should not bother Sami too much so he can give birth to my beloved A310F/A310PF 

Let hear more from other, may be they have other idea or can shape this idea into reality

[Mr.HP]

I'd like to propose that A/C trading should be strictly business, meaning sellers can get the best price for popular A/Cs, and buyers get planes based on price and specs, not by who the sellers are. So, I'd like to suggest:
- No more private listing allowed
- All listed A/C go to an NPC broker, and the broker release the A/C on UM randomly in 1-7 days
- Price to be input as a range of Max and Min. Broker will release A/C on Max price +/- 1% and gradually adjust to Min price +/-1% as the plane stays on UM for a certain time. The +/- 1% is to make the price a random number, not a $100.000.000
- No name of sellers shown
- A/C history on UM got hidden, and shown only after A/C got acquired
- Add an option of sell and lease back. Sellers name the price, and the lease price got calculated from that. Lease duration is 5 years min (like ordering new A/C). This helps save 4 weeks+ of selling and leasing A/C back, also the A/C can still fly while being listed

Benefits:
- Slow down money transferring, well there's no fool proof way to prevent it anyway. Make it harder for buyers to pinpoint the A/C his mate is selling among like 30-100 other A/Cs
- Fair A/C trading chance for everyone and best profit for sellers
- Fast and simple process for sell and lease back
- ?

Drawbacks:
- Alliance will be less attractive
- ?

HP

[MikeS]

I'm just here for the train wreck this thread has become. Thoroughly entertained. I have a can of gasoline if anyone needs it.

...damn it, I seem to have misplaced my lighter 

[Amelie090904]

I'd like to propose that A/C trading should be strictly business, meaning sellers can get the best price for popular A/Cs, and buyers get planes based on price and specs, not by who the sellers are. So, I'd like to suggest:
- No more private listing allowed
- All listed A/C go to an NPC broker, and the broker release the A/C on UM randomly in 1-7 days
- Price to be input as a range of Max and Min. Broker will release A/C on Max price +/- 1% and gradually adjust to Min price +/-1% as the plane stays on UM for a certain time. The +/- 1% is to make the price a random number, not a $100.000.000
- No name of sellers shown
- A/C history on UM got hidden, and shown only after A/C got acquired
- Add an option of sell and lease back. Sellers name the price, and the lease price got calculated from that. Lease duration is 5 years min (like ordering new A/C). This helps save 4 weeks+ of selling and leasing A/C back, also the A/C can still fly while being listed

Benefits:
- Slow down money transferring, well there's no fool proof way to prevent it anyway. Make it harder for buyers to pinpoint the A/C his mate is selling among like 30-100 other A/Cs
- Fair A/C trading chance for everyone and best profit for sellers
- Fast and simple process for sell and lease back
- ?

Drawbacks:
- Alliance will be less attractive
- ?

HP

This just does not make sense for big orders within alliances. If I order 100 planes for a very specific person, I want to list those 100 planes exactly to this person and not to the general public. If I spend billions on an order, I want to make sure this money (meaning brandnew planes) stays within the alliance and does not benefit some random buyer who could well possibly be a competitor. Sorry, I do not see the advantage of it, but rather a big disadvantage. This is not an improvement, but rather generating more problems than it fixes...

I would much rather see those regulators mentioned above. Not too bad of an idea. 1 representative of each alliance + same amount of non-alliance players + Sami on top. Sounds like a decent committee. Just needs some user interface (or at least an own subforum per game world) to report player activities and discuss/vote. I am still convinced everyone will vote based on his/her own interest and not objectively, but with Sami having the final say (including veto right), I am fine with it. Because imagine there is a dominating airline somewhere. Someone accuses it of something and obviously everyone would want to see it get a penalty...conflict of interest. But with Sami on top, why not.

[tungstennedge]

This just does not make sense for big orders within alliances. If I order 100 planes for a very specific person, I want to list those 100 planes exactly to this person and not to the general public. If I spend billions on an order, I want to make sure this money (meaning brandnew planes) stays within the alliance and does not benefit some random buyer who could well possibly be a competitor. Sorry, I do not see the advantage of it, but rather a big disadvantage. This is not an improvement, but rather generating more problems than it fixes...

I would much rather see those regulators mentioned above. Not too bad of an idea. 1 representative of each alliance + same amount of non-alliance players + Sami on top. Sounds like a decent committee. Just needs some user interface (or at least an own subforum per game world) to report player activities and discuss/vote. I am still convinced everyone will vote based on his/her own interest and not objectively, but with Sami having the final say (including veto right), I am fine with it. Because imagine there is a dominating airline somewhere. Someone accuses it of something and obviously everyone would want to see it get a penalty...conflict of interest. But with Sami on top, why not.

To add to this idea because I think its the best one so far, I think there are some decent extentions to this idea that could work quite well. If anyone here has played CSGO, they have a system to catch cheaters where they crowdsource anticheat. To do this, multiple players are shown the same case, and if everyones verdict is the same, not guilty, or accused of cheating for (any in a list of reasons), then the player is banned or let free. The system could pick experienced players to view the situation, (strictly from non allifiated groups with the incident) and then if every person reports the same thing, an punishment is issued, and if not, then it can go to review from sami or other moderators.

[groundbum2]

ref plane sales snitch (sorry,regulator my bad  )

Since AWS runs on an SQL database, Sami could publish an open read-only SQL interface to just the "planes sold in last year(gameworld, from, to,price,date,msn,sold or leased)" that any of us could write Excel/VBA etc to access. I'm sure then people would develop their own monitoring tools and for very little effort by Sami.

I'll personally slap a gold winners medal on the rump of first person to not write code to spot transgressions but instead uses AI to train itself..!

Then extend the open SQL interface to routes...!

Simon

[Mr.HP]

This just does not make sense for big orders within alliances. If I order 100 planes for a very specific person, I want to list those 100 planes exactly to this person and not to the general public. If I spend billions on an order, I want to make sure this money (meaning brandnew planes) stays within the alliance and does not benefit some random buyer who could well possibly be a competitor. Sorry, I do not see the advantage of it, but rather a big disadvantage. This is not an improvement, but rather generating more problems than it fixes...

Just my unpopular idea. It can be done automatically. Its always subjectively when people are involved

If we talk about fair and equality for everyone then equal chance of getting AC is one of the factors. Otherwise, the big will be bigger as they have money to block the production line and store all the good AC for future usage, preventing others from getting (enough) AC to grow

[Amelie090904]

Just my unpopular idea. It can be done automatically. Its always subjectively when people are involved

If we talk about fair and equality for everyone then equal chance of getting AC is one of the factors. Otherwise, the big will be bigger as they have money to block the production line and store all the good AC for future usage, preventing others from getting (enough) AC to grow

The system is already fair as the production slots are assigned evenly among all airlines that order that type. There is no prority given to large orders (actually large orders get a disadvantage in the production line as the production slots are spread far into the future while smaller orders will always be squeezed in somewhere). I don't see how this is unfair as of now. The game mechanisms work in the same way for everyone, meaning everyone has equal opportunities to order planes. Also, "the big" don't start big with huge amounts of cash. They work their way up the ladder. Again, everyone has the same opportunities to both "become big" and to order planes from the manufacturer.

But I agree, an automatic "deliver to airline X at book/recommended price" would be such a cool feature and save tons of time.