It’s time for a serious convo about sale leasebacks and cash transfers

[Aero]

Maybe go back to the 3 used planes a week as it was years ago.
This slows down this rescue operations.

[Aero]

I even made fun of you in my last press release subtly, Aero.   Not everyone has hundreds of 10 year old stored & unused dc 10s to use as a savings account. 

Thus thread will get locked if you don't start discussing seriously.

This is it you, other Elite members all make fun of my airliner while i just want to play a game.
If someone don't go bankrupt just make fun of him/her in hope he/she stops?
How i play my game is non of other Alliance there business.
Stop provoke me.

[Aero]

Calm down. All of those 737-300s will be sold/leased to Desert Air (alliance member) at the same cost (which is book value by the way) once his local competitor Skruf is BK. He will need them to cover the then vacant demand. It is only a matter of a few quarters until the sale will take place. We have managed to make Skruf unprofitable through the last few years since Desert Air began operating out of Cairo. At the current rate, it should not take more than 1-2 years for him to have a complete monopoly, doubling his demand and thus fleet size. I am currently leasing out over 300 737s to him, with those ~150 being "in store" for future needs once his competitor is gone. Since Desert Air still is rather small with limited economic opportunities, ordering them himself is near impossible. What better way is there than helping a struggling alliance member and making use of cheap/old planes by leasing them out to a much younger/newer member? If this is against the rules, I wonder why we have alliances in the game.

It is not a fraudulent money transfer scheme (buying a plane expensively and selling/leasing it back cheaply as some other alliance is doing it), but regular alliance business that is in line with AWS rules.

Normal way is W air sell to desert air.
Why need the planes first go trough Arrowhead?
To keep W air alive?
This is not up to me to investigate.

[swiftus27]

Can I purchase 100 A320Neos for someone at launch and sell them at book?   Why is this on par with buying a plane at 15m and selling it at over $100m many years later only for it to be scrapped?

[groundbum2]

the rules are planes can be bought and sold for whatever price you fancy. But the rules also say the intent when trading planes is to do so to allow the plane to fly and be operated. And not to be used for any money changing purposes, flying only.

So I'm sure Sami has some SQL written that he can run when alerted that will pickup the planes that don't appear to follow the above rules.

Simon

[Amelie090904]

Maybe go back to the 3 used planes a week as it was years ago.
This slows down this rescue operations.

And it would slow down fleet transitions to a point it gets a real pita. This can't possibly be your proposal. Removing the best improvement of the last year...sorry, but this is a pure facepalm from me.

[Amelie090904]

Normal way is W air sell to desert air.
Why need the planes first go trough Arrowhead?
To keep W air alive?
This is not up to me to investigate.

I already said that Desert Air is a new airline with limited economic opportunities. If I can function as a middleman then I will gladly do it, obviously forwarding the planes for the same price I bought them for (buying for book value, selling/leasing out for book value). Desert Air has/had no means to buy them himself. I have currently over 330 737s leased out to him and he leased already some of the 737s that I bought from W Air. The complete sale will take some time for obvious reasons, but there is nothing illegal with it.

However, I still don't understand the following (airline names anonymous, but airlines within Sky Alliance):

04-Jan-2008   Bought by XYZ ($87 128 000)
04-Dec-2007   Bought by ABC ($37 021 000)
21-Jul-2007   Bought by XYZ ($37 284 000)

Why would someone buy a plane for 37m, sell it to an alliance mate for 37m and then buy it back immediately for more than double the price? Coincidence, not paying attention to the price? Could well be, can happen. But why sell/buy it back within a month to begin with?

[Aero]

Interesting is that you guys have for everything an answer except for the part where make fun of others which have nothing to do with the game.
That is acceptable?

Desrt air has over 2 bln in current assets, so the funds are definitely there to buy big sum of 15 to 20mln  a plane.
No middle man needed.

This is just an escape route as you guys are catched.
And Egypt competition have enough funds to survive fuel spike

[PreciselyTuned]

Interesting is that you guys have for everything an answer except for the part where make fun of others which have nothing to do with the game.
That is acceptable?

Desrt air has over 2 bln in current assets, so the funds are definitely there to buy big sum of 15 to 20mln  a plane.
No middle man needed.

This is just an escape route as you guys are catched.
And Egypt competition have enough funds to survive fuel spike

You do know assets ≠ liquid funds, right?

[DanDan]

The used aircraft market is bugged. It has been since years and recent changes have not significantly reduced the problem.

Lets see the (incomplete) list: AI can sell at random prices (and usually buys stuff noone needs!). Market standard prices dont reflect market standards. Currently a "market" exists only for two or three fleet types (excepts for game start period). Airlines need to store planes that are perfectly airworthy for years because they cant get rid of it,...

It certainly would be a priority issue to work on imho, after the overhaul of the datastructure in the background is completed!

[gazzz0x2z]

and usually buys stuff noone needs!

This cannot be understated. It does not order the airplanes the most in demand (like 320s or NGs in current Modern times game), and where it takes planes (like 777s or 330s), it's always the versions noone wants (short range 777, why go 777 then?)

[Meddix]

Normally I don't really feel the need to comment on the forum but I also see more and more examples of players bending the rules. Cash transfers, using troll accounts etc I've seen it all.

Groundbum summed it up well. The rules are that you can buy/sell planes at any price.
Having said that, I can understand Swiftus' comment, this has nothing to do with normal buying and selling of aircraft.

I think a lot of players are done with this kind of nonsense.
And I am one of them. I like a clean game.
You can't expect Sami to be a police officer every time.
Instead of bending the rules, mis using the rules you can also discuss the here. So it can be used to improve this game and keep the fun for everyone

Maybe for this reason the following suggestion.
All aircraft sales only via the UM.
When you sell an aircraft, it is randomly added to the UM in 1-7 days

To answer a few comments in advance.
"Then a fleet transition becomes much more difficult".
"And in reality, planes are also sold from one airline to another"
My answers.
Yes the transition will be more difficult, but no problem for a good player.
And yes, not really in line with reality. But in everyday reality, an airline also does not buy 100 new aircraft and sell them to another airline with a loss

[swiftus27]

Interesting is that you guys have for everything an answer except for the part where make fun of others which have nothing to do with the game.
That is acceptable?

Desrt air has over 2 bln in current assets, so the funds are definitely there to buy big sum of 15 to 20mln  a plane.
No middle man needed.

This is just an escape route as you guys are catched.
And Egypt competition have enough funds to survive fuel spike

If you're so convinced of malice then answer me this:

1.  Why did Andre buy them for Market Value instead of max price?
2.  Why didn't Andre just scrap them once he bought them?

I will actually agree on the observation of current assets.  A lot of this began when I saw an airline buying all of my used a320s on the market.   I actually DID take a screenshot of that airline and reported it because it had about 1/4 the current assets of the amount spent on my planes.  The airline had 200m in current assets yet purchase many more hundreds of millions in used planes despite losing money.   It was obvious then.  Then we saw the A300s and knew exactly what was up.

So I'll retort:   Is that A300 sale non-leaseback for a 600%+ profit ok as players intimated on the prior page or is that not ok?   

[DanDan]

in my opinion, maybe, the "used" market should be separated by fleet type, into planes that are in high demand and planes that are in low demand:

• fleet types that are in high demand are defined by an introduction date less than X years ago (i assume 3 or 4 is a possible number for X)
• and additionally fleet types, where more than Y percent of the coming 12 (or 24) months' prod line are sold out (i assume 50 or 75 would be a possible number for Y)

for these high demand fleet types, following rules could be valid:
- sale only at value (in which case value is representing some kind of market value) [imho: should be ~the current manufacturers sales price in my opinion, for a plane at 0 years; possibly higher if production line is sold out for many months]
- a specific target customer can be selected / and possibly also the choice to select the alliance instead of a specific customer

all other fleet types one should be able to post to the used market at following conditions:
- sale/lease price starts at said "value"
- the posting cannot be done privately
- the posting isnt visible instantly, but only within the next ~7 days
- the price drops from value to scrap-value over a certain period (maybe 10 months so it doesnt have to go into another Ccheck)
- if it reaches scrap value, the AI brokers buy the plane (and can either scrap it for real or put it back on the market for whatever reason)
- exception: for planes below 1 year of age, the sale can be limited to a specific customer, but price wont be reduced over time

AI brokers should have to adhere to the same pricing! (else the whole trading doesnt work) [and possibly shouldnt have to buy all the trash from manufacturers, but thats another story]


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other improvements i can think of, but arent as urgent, for the used market:

- investment in planes: basically sell and lease back, BUT it is a separate market, where airlines offer planes for sell and lease back deals - while these planes are in service; other airlines can buy these, while directly leasing them back to the offering airline at the same price again
- bundling airplanes into groups of seven (of the same fleet type) to post them to the used market
- selling aircraft directly from the production line (so to save the delivery times)

[Amelie090904]

Why so complicated? Why not just go with something like:

- An aircraft cannot be sold back/leased back within X months after the first sale took place
- An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller or another alliance member for a higher/lower amount than it has been sold for (freezing the price)

I think with these 2 rules we are good to go. Especially my 2nd suggestion would mean that any plane can still be sold to another alliance member, but there would be no more repeated money transfers possible. A struggling airline could not sell a plane expensively only to buy/lease it back cheaper or vice versa.

[schlaf]

"An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller for a higher amount than it has been sold for"

That one would be enough so solve the whole problem I think!!

[Amelie090904]

"An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller for a higher amount than it has been sold for"

That one would be enough so solve the whole problem I think!!

Yes. I just edited it a bit to cover it better:

- An aircraft cannot be sold back/leased back within X months after the first sale took place
- An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller or another alliance member for a higher/lower amount than it has been sold for (freezing the price)

I think with these 2 rules we are good to go. Especially my 2nd suggestion would mean that any plane can still be sold to another alliance member, but there would be no more repeated money transfers possible. A struggling airline could not sell a plane expensively only to buy/lease it back cheaper. On the other hand, a profitable airline could not provide a cheap plane to a struggling airline only to buy it back expensively and thus giving the struggling airline cash.

[DanDan]

"An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller for a higher amount than it has been sold for"

That one would be enough so solve the whole problem I think!!

the whole cash4trash scheme would still work

[Amelie090904]

the whole cash4trash scheme would still work

Please explain how with the following rule:

"- An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller or another alliance member for a higher/lower amount than it has been sold for (freezing the price)

I think with these 2 rules we are good to go. Especially my 2nd suggestion would mean that any plane can still be sold to another alliance member, but there would be no more repeated money transfers possible. A struggling airline could not sell a plane expensively only to buy/lease it back cheaper. On the other hand, a profitable airline could not provide a cheap plane to a struggling airline only to buy it back expensively and thus giving the struggling airline cash."

The price would be frozen. Sales/leases within the alliance would still be allowed and possible, but the price is frozen.

[DanDan]

Please explain how with the following rule:

"- An aircraft cannot be sold back to the seller or another alliance member for a higher/lower amount than it has been sold for (freezing the price)

I think with these 2 rules we are good to go. Especially my 2nd suggestion would mean that any plane can still be sold to another alliance member, but there would be no more repeated money transfers possible. A struggling airline could not sell a plane expensively only to buy/lease it back cheaper. On the other hand, a profitable airline could not provide a cheap plane to a struggling airline only to buy it back expensively and thus giving the struggling airline cash."

The price would be frozen. Sales/leases within the alliance would still be allowed and possible, but the price is frozen.

well, first of all, airlines would still be able to move out of alliance for example, to get some "subsidies".* secondly, an airline that is - lets call it "endangered - usually is endangered because it has some old/inadequate/inefficient aircraft in service; when it can sell these to another airline for a higher price than what its actually worth** (because they are in the same alliance, or maybe the ceos just like each other or for whatever reason): that is called a money transfer in my opinion. ***

i know, your two-rule proposal is simple, it would solve a lot of mischief going on, but it is bandaid on a wound what would need by now a few stitches. not saying it is not a good stopgap measure, but i think if we want to rethink the used market and give the game some extra game-play-value, we should think a bit more outside the box.


* never happened before
** sure noone has thought of that before, but... hypothetically 
*** i am not saying i did it, but those L1011-1 were so tempting, i just had to buy them at 130% manufacturers prices back then from the very nice friendly CEO, even though they didnt fit my routes at all...