Fair competion

[pasterya]

What have I do?
My O2 airline started 4 month ago
Now it profiteble
But my competitor sterted to fly 80% of my routes, but a lot of other routes empty?
My sailsgo down?
Can I do smth exept go out of the game?

[Zombie Slayer]

Report the offending airline to Sami. Targeting a new airline is a breach of the rules. PM Sami with the airline name, game world, and some specific route examples.

[Zobelle]

What have I do?
My O2 airline started 4 month ago
Now it profiteble
But my competitor sterted to fly 80% of my routes, but a lot of other routes empty?
My sailsgo down?
Can I do smth exept go out of the game?

Could just be a coincidence.

[Tha_Ape]

Would need to know what is the rough percentage route your competitor is flying that are not yours. I that percentage is really low, then it'd most likely a killing.
On the other hand, if those routes you both fly are the only really thick routes, it might be a little more difficult to find out.

But it's the 1st option or just borderline, check with Sami and try to give him some details, he'll see.

[gazzz0x2z]

Impossible to say seen from outside. Nubira did set up a base in Pulkovo 08-Oct-2010. You did open a HQ there 12-May-2011, so I, as a simple player, cannot know if he is following you, or if you are following him.

That being said, with 2.7B$ in cash reserves, he is strong enough to survive a price war. Whether his moves are legal or not(I don't have enough info to know), I'd advise you not to follow him in a price war. Said otherwise, don't lower your prices to keep your market share. It would overall reduce your income base. Better fly a little less passengers, with a little bit more income per passenger.

Now, if I look at the routes, I have the following destinations :
Almaty, Nubira alone
Amsterdam, Nubira plus plenty of locals
Anapa, Nubira alone
Ankara, Nubira and a local
Ashgabat, Nubira alone
Athens, O2 alone
Bahrain, O2 alone
Baku, both of you. Competitive line, but with 170 demand, 2 single-aisle aircraft with proper pricing should survive.
Barcelona, you alone
Beauvais, Bergamo, Tegel, Bologna, Bristol, Brno, Nubira alone
Brussels, you and a local
Bugulma, you alone


Etc...

On some of your lines, he settled, but far from a majority. Assuming he didn't care about you, half of his lines should overlap yours(as he came before you). Seems it's less. So my uneducated guess is that he just went where he planned to go, whether you're there or not. I do the same. If I planned 5 daily Algiers-Tunis, I fly 5 Algiers Tunis. Wether there is opposition or not. I assumed while planning that I would be able to fill 5 birds there, and I fly them. Opposition may appear or disappear, not my problem. And if local airlines(or a competitor in Algiers, but I don't have any for now) decide to fight there, bad luck for everyone.

Honestly, he might have followed you, but from what I see, it's far from being a systematic stalking. Though Sami's logs might prove otherwise. I just see a strong company that expands as forecasted, and a small one that identified the same growth opportunities. I might be wrong, though, I don't have the logs.

[pasterya]

Thank you for your answers
I don't know how new company can starts?
I make the choice between  medium size regional airports. LED was fully empty, the most empty airport in Europe throw ALL 3 GM! (I cheked all GM). A lot of free routes. And in 1 day I faced a mirror competition on 70% of my routes. Of course it's I am following him.
If really why there no new starts of game worlds till July? Because I don't know how can I start normally and runs good?
It seemed that LED base was new and not a priority for Nubira. It has 5 bases and they not fully occupied. But after I started it's begin a lot of activities in one day,when Nubira saw me)
Maybe I'm not right. But spent a lot of time to find free routes. TO grow O2. I have 8 planes and number 7 raiting throw world for fleet utilization.
But I don't know how to rise if my sails falling down, not rising. But RI grows up. Where I have  to go???

[Zobelle]

Competition on its own isn't an attack.

[pasterya]

Maybe )

When the nearst start of any GM? TO try play there, where not only monster-giant-manybilions dol AIRlines are? Here it' s like a game between a very big compnaies. If really I think 1 base can run only one company. (if it has only 6-7 traffic). And why giant companies has so many bases? And why they can open base on so big bases, not regional? I dont know how can starter compeet with giant?

I can compeet a lot of companies on different routes, to look on
But in this case I dont have any chance(

[gazzz0x2z]

Competition on its own isn't an attack.

Depends on how it happens. last GW3, I played in CDG. I was in need of expansion. ORY did seem a good target. There was 2 companies there, one about to die already and the other one with a pack of Q400 strong on the 12 main french domestic lines - and nowhere else. I first filled the international routes, leaving time to the surviving company to react. But there was no reaction. As I was still in need of place for expansion, then, only then, I began to build up routes on the domestic main routes. And yes, 733s can kill Q400s.

I left this company a chance(the other one had no chance whatsoever, wether I would attack or not) to flee somewhere else and survive. The question is : does O2 has a fair chance? The answer is : looks like yes, but I don't have the logs to verify. If effectively all routes where O2 and Nubira are present, and Nubira settled there just after O2, there is a rule violation.

[pasterya]

Nubira set it in one day. To all connections

And if it's a violation whats then?

P.S. I whrite to Contact us. Sami profile says to do like this

How long it's usually take to answer?

[alexgv1]

I think they're usually quick here to respond on important matters. I guess you'd hear by the end of the day.

[gazzz0x2z]

Then PM Sami (and give him a lot of details). Though you have 20 flights towards 19 destinations, and Nubira is present on 10 of them, including SVO where he is based.

That being said, the usual tactic to face big boys is to use smaller aircraft. While frequency is not the killer some think it is, a well led fleet of Smaller aircraft is unkillable. That's why Nubira has a complement of smaller aircraft, in addition to his single-aisle fleet. Where there is 150 demand, if you fly a single aisle aircraft and the other company a regional jet or a turboprop, you'll be in trouble quicker. Because you won't get much more market share(unless the other plane flies beyond its too small penalty), but will have higher overall costs, despite a smaller cost per seat. Look at a line like Pulkovo-Prague. Local companies fly medium aircraft, Nubira & O2 fly large planes, and both 4 companies have similar market shares. But Newfoundland's Q400 and ORBIS's E170 cost significantly less per flight than your 736 or Nubira's MD90. The czech companies certainly make more money on the line than the russian ones. Despite being costlier per seat.

Also : 737NGs are kickass planes, but very costly at this stage of the game. Nubira flies MD90, and while slightly inferior, those are notably cheaper. A brand new MD90-55 costs 66M$ right now, while a slightly superior 737-900 costs 110M$, and leasing costs are proportional. It's the same kind of different on the used market, though There are not enough airframes to be significant. For a beginning company, it's highly advised to stick to older airframes - assuming they don't drink too much petrol. For this category, Y42s and MD80s now drink too much, but 737 classics, while inferior and slower than 737 NGs, are half the price of their more recent counterparts. Look at how much money you spend in leasing costs, imagin halving those costs, for increasing fuel costs by 10% and maintenance by 20%. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised. The usual wisdom is to begin a company by leasing old crap, and there is a reason. Better planes are for established companies, and are better bought - a newcomer usually can't purchase his new airframes. Said otherwise, you should have avoided the 737NGs(as well as the A320s), and jumped into the 737 classics(or the MD90s, like your opponent). You are too small yet to fly state-of-the-art airplanes, as tempting as they may look.

Also : your route to JFK is magnificent, but it's very hard to make good money with 737-700ER at all, even when owned, and especially when fuel prices are above 1000$ There is a reason not many companies IRL do that kind of flights. I did a lot of them in the past, but it was just to spread my activities after having covered all lower-range destinations. With owned 737-700ER, and 7 days 7 planes schedules, and I was hardly in the green when fuel prices were above 1000$. And I'd like to add that there is business demand on the line that you leave on the table with your 120 seats setting.

Note that he took a risk going to 4 fleet groups, and the bigger he will be, the harsher the commonality penalty will be against him. But for now, he's strong enough(and not big enough, the devil really flies around 600 airframes) to survive the penalty.

[pasterya]

That being said, the usual tactic to face big boys is to use smaller aircraft. While frequency is not the killer some think it is, a well led fleet of Smaller aircraft is unkillable. That's why Nubira has a complement of smaller aircraft, in addition to his single-aisle fleet. Where there is 150 demand, if you fly a single aisle aircraft and the other company a regional jet or a turboprop, you'll be in trouble quicker. Because you won't get much more market share(unless the other plane flies beyond its too small penalty), but will have higher overall costs, despite a smaller cost per seat. Look at a line like Pulkovo-Prague. Local companies fly medium aircraft, Nubira & O2 fly large planes, and both 4 companies have similar market shares. But Newfoundland's Q400 and ORBIS's E170 cost significantly less per flight than your 736 or Nubira's MD90. The czech companies certainly make more money on the line than the russian ones. Despite being costlier per seat.

Understand it. But, in my opinion, with B737-600/700/800 it's faster to grow, while there are not so many E170 or even E140, or Bombardirs
It's my next step. Othervise on my entry point from LED a lot of routes was empty
I want to have 20 B737-NG and than follow to Embraer or Bombardier because of a lot routes with low demand

Also : 737NGs are kickass planes, but very costly at this stage of the game. Nubira flies MD90, and while slightly inferior, those are notably cheaper. A brand new MD90-55 costs 66M$ right now, while a slightly superior 737-900 costs 110M$, and leasing costs are proportional. It's the same kind of different on the used market, though There are not enough airframes to be significant. For a beginning company, it's highly advised to stick to older airframes - assuming they don't drink too much petrol. For this category, Y42s and MD80s now drink too much, but 737 classics, while inferior and slower than 737 NGs, are half the price of their more recent counterparts. Look at how much money you spend in leasing costs, imagin halving those costs, for increasing fuel costs by 10% and maintenance by 20%. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised. The usual wisdom is to begin a company by leasing old crap, and there is a reason. Better planes are for established companies, and are better bought - a newcomer usually can't purchase his new airframes. Said otherwise, you should have avoided the 737NGs(as well as the A320s), and jumped into the 737 classics(or the MD90s, like your opponent). You are too small yet to fly state-of-the-art airplanes, as tempting as they may look.

But on the used market is boeing 737-300|400|500 are so hard to find. And prises between b737-300 and b737-600 not very different on lesed models
And I thought that MD is too hungry. Fuel prises are high... I have to calculate it...

Also : your route to JFK is magnificent, but it's very hard to make good money with 737-700ER at all, even when owned, and especially when fuel prices are above 1000$ There is a reason not many companies IRL do that kind of flights. I did a lot of them in the past, but it was just to spread my activities after having covered all lower-range destinations. With owned 737-700ER, and 7 days 7 planes schedules, and I was hardly in the green when fuel prices were above 1000$. And I'd like to add that there is business demand on the line that you leave on the table with your 120 seats setting.

But it's profitable. Also because of cargo) Demand is so high, that my prises are +40%

Note that he took a risk going to 4 fleet groups, and the bigger he will be, the harsher the commonality penalty will be against him. But for now, he's strong enough(and not big enough, the devil really flies around 600 airframes) to survive the penalty.

Yes I know. Last year he was non profitable. Only one Q was income all other losses. But he have a lot of fat))) I could compeet only if I become bigger) And now I need profitable routes, without attacks) 


P.S. Now I see that b737-300/400/500 is a lot of them. there was so little when I started(((((((
P.P.S. Every new fleet group incresed cost in 2 times?
P.P.P.S. No matter for new airline how old is my planes? It doesnt affect on anything?

[Sami]

Copying here for general interest:

Hello,

I have reviewed the situation at LED airport in GW#3.

​​The rules state as follows: "Any coordinated "attacks" by single airlines, alliances, or by any other group of airlines, to prevent some airline from operating on a route or to deliberately push some airline out of the simulation are not allowed. Competition is generally free in the sim but any clearly unfair competition measures such as flying routes with huge overcapacity and with very low prices and deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline." https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/#Competition​​​

Your airline was started​​ in 12-May-2011 and the other airline had just months before opened a new base at LED airport, 08-Oct-2010. So while the other airline is not new, he is new at that airport too - so it is normal that they expand their operations.

Looking at the actual data I've found nothing that points to any coordinated attack or anything that is against the rules stated above. You have routes to 19 destinations, and the other airline has indeed started flying to 8 same destinations than you and after you started. BUT the other airline has at the same time (after you had started) opened routes to 25 other destinations (if I counted correctly the long list).

So in game year 2011 the two airlines of you have together opened nearly 50 new destinations from LED and you only share 8 of them.

In conclusion, I did not find anything for us to take actions here.​​

[pasterya]

Thank you a lot(
It's just hard to compeet in this angry times((((

[Zobelle]

Another fair outcome brought to you by the law offices of Sami and Sami.

[JumboShrimp]

Another fair outcome brought to you by the law offices of Sami and Sami.

Seems like a fair ruling to me.
(still unfortunate for the new airline, but unfortunate things happen)

[pasterya]

A few days past.
I invested in marketing.
Had 400-500k profit per week

Now all my routes are flown by nubira
Exept longhaul, kbp and kaliningrad.

My profit is 0.
I dont know how can small company growth? When I have now a mirror competion...

[Tha_Ape]

Sneak in, play smaller, go where he can't go, adapt. You're young and have more elasticity, while he already has too many fleets and can't adapt to your swift moves.

Actually Gazzz post was all about that.

[gazzz0x2z]

Beginning with single aisle aircraft is a clever move at the beginning of a game world, because everyone is equal. You need to grow quick to bypass your opponents, and to do more money quicker. I crushed all starting(and most upcoming)opposition when I began in CDG previous GW3, just by overcapacity and overgrowth, without any specific target.

Beginning late is a very different sport. You are small amongst the big, and need to be as invisible as possible. Growth will be slower, but safer.

Most big companies don't advertise on the forum, bar a few exceptions, and it's not random. Exceptions are mostly "I've got A321neos to sell on the UM, take them quickly, they'll cost you bar", or roleplay. Announcements like "Almaty airlines opened its third line" that you see a lot in beginner's world do not happen there, because seasoned players know that it would only attract attention to their operations. Attraction is more opposition. Noone wants that.

So, I stick to my advice(which Tha_ape summarized very well) : your current market is overloaded, try to find another market. And don't spend more than 10% of your expenses in marketing. Play the chamois. Be uncatchable. Grow slow, far, safe. And maybe, 10 years later, come back with lust for revenge. Against a T-Rex, you can't win a head-on fight.