Fair competion

[Zobelle]

Pretty much what gaz said.

Even Trex airlines can be drummed out of airports..

I had the opposite of what happen to me in GW2 as a larger carrier. Startup came in with tons of leased planes and overloaded the routes to the point where I couldn't make money off the routes due to the overhead it was costing me. I "retreated" and went a different direction with my airline as an act of adaptation.

[pasterya]

Look, I see it like this:
1.   My only operation mistake is using boeing737-NG. Because on my start  B-737-300/400/500 was on the same prices. I thought it's a luck of B737-3.4.5. It cost me +1.6M dol per month/ All other is strategy. And it's a game. And we want to play our strategy and we paid for it. If I want small plains I'll go to regional challenge
2.   Whatever rules AS says, my situation in game like in real world cold monopoly. And all economics have some secured rules and regulation of monopolies. Only this provides fair competition. And now regulation in AS.
3.   AS is a business and I'm a costumer. I asked what service provides me AS?? I am a new player what protection I have? New players are interested to play? NO. I spend two weeks on simulation, and it crashed due to 1 player. BUT LED airport was recommended when I started and was the most empty in all GW from all recommended on medium-haul. Now like a costumer I'm demotivated and disappointed. Why I have to start now from scratch? And waiting first results? Due to my mistakes? Or due to no protection from monopoly. And I paid credits to join the GM for....?
4.   What is the interest for Nubira. I think he plays sandbox, not online game. He don't want to see fair competition. He wants to be a giant with nocompetiton. It is not so interesting)
5.   AS rules is to soft. I think it have to contain more concrete points. ETC the biggest competitor in one airport-base (bigger by quantity airframes more than 30%) do not have rights to flight more then 50% of destination which smaller company started to fly first half of year (or first 20 routes). Rules works only for smaller company HQ.

So for new company which started and chosen empty routes are protected, but only basically. For bigger company it's not affect at all. For small company it's a big-big guaranty and secure from monopoly company. Then I would have a base for reform. Now I even have to wait for a year to open base in other region. I have no profit base and no motivation to grow. I seemed Nubira will open 5th base on my new HQ. It have to makes automatically alert for moderators if rules are crossed

SO sorry guys, but be fair with yourself. AS do not protect newcomers. Maybe nobody want's to see new players, so we have only 3GMs. Maybe AS strategy welcomes sandboxes players.
But I'm like a newcomer has no protection. Because big-company have a mask. He started my routes in groups with other routes and in monthly step. So logs a clear and rules are ok. Process maybe ok. But result? I am out of market only because of B737NG? But I was profitably when even 30% of routes was no monopoly competed

Thanks

[Zobelle]

If anything there are too many protections.

[gazzz0x2z]

If anything there are too many protections.

I do disagree, as I think protections are important, but your main point remains : there are protections. Limited protections. AWS is a competitive game, with winners and losers. And most players did Bankrupt several times before thriving. Learning is hard, that's what makes the game so interesting. I personally never Bankrupted, but I've been very cautious in my first games to learn in places far enough from the big boys. With very defensive tactics. Slowly but surely, I did grow up, and now I can face most players fearlessly(there are still a few ones I would not like to see settle in one of my bases).

Noone is entitled survival in this game, and that's why it's so interesting. It's challenging. I'm not playing in GW1(not enough time, with a young baby at home to feed), but if I had to settle now in GW1, I'd be in great danger, and it would be fascinating. 2 GW3 ago, I did face a player as good as me in Detroit, and had to be very cautious not to enter in a war with him - a war that certainly would have killed us both. I am a customer too, and I like this feeling of danger. Probably one day I'll be defeated - noone is invincible. It will be a great lesson to me. A lesson I'm ready to learn. If you play not to lose, then don't play competitive games.

[pasterya]

So you really want to say that new company which has fsce 2 face competiton with giant is loser?
And it do not need some bsdic protection to keep on trsck and make reforms.
I do not affraid to loose.
I afraid of waisting time.

So it,s your position.
But interesting how many newcommers go out from as and even do not whrite here. For me its 3d time.

All you says is good. But game is not comfort for new players, in my opinion. And you dont want to see it

And you comment a lot. But I still dont undetstood what do you think about situation with one company on 85% of routes has competiton with giant.

[MikeS]

From the quick look I had and the previous information on this thread:

- Nubira started operations at LED before O2
- The routes served by both are the normal main destinations every airline would fly to: ATH, MAD, FRA, BCN....etc
- All the routes I saw, had only one flight per competitor so I cannot see any "attack".

I only see a big airline expanding normally from a new base it opened.

This is an airline business simulation and competition is of course a big part of it.

Enjoy the challenge and adapt or look for a different airport, the world is huge

Cheers!
Mike

[pasterya]

I think I' m... i even don' t know who.
Normally expand...
Do you red my posts?

But I understand, you do not want to change smth. You don't want to regulate monopolies so new playres can enter. It's a club. One giant one airport. Nothing else.

My post still about- no protection of face to face compitition with monopoly. It's hard to compeet. So small companies crashed fast.
It's look like big companies do not want competition

[Zobelle]

Biggest protection one can afford themselves is to be cautious and do not overextend yourself.

Don't dive in the deep end before you learn to swim.

[Tha_Ape]

@ Pasterya

Last GW#4 was my 1st ever GW, after 2 weeks in BW. I was new to this game and started mid-game in some system-suggested place in China. Became the 3rd airline there in a really short time, because (unlike you) I've been lucky enough not to have heavy competition in my HQ nor in my 2nd base. Then, I expanded and slowly faced harder competition, but in the meanwhile I learned some stuff and managed my way quite nicely.

In the same GW, I "killed" a newcomer just like you are right now. Because I wanted? No. I felt sorry for the guy, sent him a PM and everything. I killed him because I opened a base 2 real hours after he started. Did I do this on purpose? No, I planned this opening for months, had all the planes ready (around 28 or 35), some basic schedules already built, all the potential destinations written down, etc.
But what could I do? Should I have cancelled my plans because he started there?

And again, this was my first ever GW, I was still quite unexperienced (I still am).

Having started in LED while Nubira was still small, LED seemed empty, seemed a good option. Unfortunately (and without having access to the GW in question), I suspect as the others that Nubira already planned his expansion. You could not reasonably ask him not to fly the very basic routes out of LED and let you all alone.

I get it that you've been unlucky (both with St Pete and the 737NG), but that's the reason why you should try other tactics. Competition means that one loses. And in this game, you can lose even without competition, if you manage your airline badly.
Basically, no player can directly kill you, an airline can be killed only if it's weak. And "weak" doesn't necessarily means small, it means defenseless or badly managed.

Sure, in some situations, even for seasoned players, it can be really difficult to sneak in. But you cannot ask to have a playground reserved for yourself. Sometimes competitions goes well, sometimes not. Sometimes 2 players live together and make deals (direct or tacit agreement), sometimes both die.

Running out of luck is bad, but it doesn't mean there is no room. So you can either stay in St Pete and develop new tactics he won't be able to counter (as previously said), or BK and restart in another country or base (you have 5 tries in total for the same GW before having to purchase the access again).

China is a large country and I've been very lucky that it was so underpopulated and you might not have the same chance, but then go for a smaller place. Before being able to compete, you need to learn. And to learn, you need to survive. If you just die and keep dying, the problem is not about the others but about you. No matter how many players there are in a GW, there is always a place to play. Island hopping in Papua New Guinea? A little bit of everything in Nairobi? Some place in South America?

Go where you can practice, don't be afraid to fall, face new challenges. Starting mid-game is usually not easy, but there are always a lot of opportunities. Go grab them and fight for your life (or for the life of your airline), and you'll manage your way in.

What makes this game so interesting is the competitive aspect. But this necessarily implies some bad times, you just have to overcome them and look further away.

[groundbum2]

nubira has -14% profitability right now in GW3 because of the high fuel prices. He has 1.7BN in the bank but lost 340mill last quarter on operations, and spent 400mill on new planes etc. So if the fuel prices stay this high for a year, he could be out of cash....

Simon

[Zobelle]

The dangers of overextending...

[jezbanks]

nubira has -14% profitability right now in GW3 because of the high fuel prices. He has 1.7BN in the bank but lost 340mill last quarter on operations, and spent 400mill on new planes etc. So if the fuel prices stay this high for a year, he could be out of cash....

Simon

Where can you see the cash in the bank for an airline? I can't see it on any of the stars pages

[dmoose42]

"Current Assets" in the general information tab for an airline. It's not exactly cash in the bank. (prepaid expenses such as prepaid lease expenses are also in there), but it's close enough as a proxy

[dagwood]

Good question   What are you calling cash on hand? Current assets?

[dagwood]

thanks

[48days]

I hate to say it, but some players set themselves up to fail.

Had one airline in BW2 that didn't adapt as I set up in his base of YVR.  After going bankrupt he tries starting over in YVR again, with brand new CRJs.  As many experienced players can imagine that didn't last long.  Now he's started in YHZ (Which I do not have a base in, or immediate plans to open one).  He's flying a very lightly used 787, and new CRJs again.  Instead of focusing on flights from YHZ to cities where I do not have a base, he's tried flying the YYZ and YUL routes, both of which I fly with paid for 737s.  He could probably read that scheduling tutorial, as his company image has dropped to -11.  I haven't changed my operations in regards to YHZ at all since his airline started, but he's still losing money.

[gazzz0x2z]

sometimes, it's more subtle than that. The most tricky way to build you own path to BK is by growth with 4 fleet groups.

Everyone know 4 fleet groups is bad, but when you're 100-250 sized, it's not that bad. So many players accept to pay the extra cost to help them covering more market niches. IMHO, in my current position in Algeria, I could probably take the risk, as I have no opposuition, and I'll have tough tim to plan more than 300 planes anyways.

The trap is that it works. For a good number of years, it works. Then, the company reaches 400 airplanes, 500 airplanes, 524, and the penalty becomes punitive, and opposition suddenly seems stronger, and you enter the spiral of death. It's extremely frequent because it's so easy to think "hehehe, I'm more clever than those guys who limit themselves to 1 or 2 fleet groups, I'm gonna steal all the market, Muwhawhawhawha!!!", and make it succeed for 10-15 years. And, all of a sudden, Boom. I've seen it countless times, even when I was a mentor. The cost sunk fallacy kicks in strongly, there. Those players have invested so much in all their fleet group that they can't imagine giving up one. By failure of cutting of one ill leg, they let themselves die. Usually, they have a fleet group that is far less important in terms of profit than others, and they'd just have to reschedule it, or simply give it up, to start back on a healthy base. Most of them don't. And die.

Early in the game, it can be a net gain to go for 4 fleet groups. I did it in my polish GW2 game, to grow faster. But you need an exit plan before you grow too big. I rationalized everything into either F27s or B727s before I went too big, and avoided on purpose serving lines beyond 2400NM. That's a market my opponent took. But, at the end, having one more fleet group was dragging him to the bottom. It's not what killed him, but it would have later, hadn't he done other errors.

That's what I love with this game. You have to be cautious about what market you are serving. You need to make interesting decisions. Nothing is costless. Shall I go LH? In GW3, in Algeria, I did, because it was juicy enough for a limited risk - it's easy to keep fleet groups until the end of the game, now. In Poland, in the 60s, it would have killed me. So I gave up that market. Refocusing on the strong points of the polish market made me stronger, not weaker. The fear to miss out something is a very bad advisor. I'll never fly WAW-JFK. I miss it. I'll always miss it. That's why I'm above 20% in company margin. Accepting my own weaknesses makes me stronger.

EDIT : just had a look, and Nubira seems indeeed to take that path...Survive him 2 more years, and the russian market will be all yours.

[groundbum2]

I'm about to BK in GW3, due fuel prices, but with 4 fleet groups 8-( My competitor commonality costs with 3 fleet groups is 35M/month (I asked, he told me, nice chap) mine are 170M/month! Shame cos all 500+ of my planes is in profit by and large. So that's a new lesson learnt!

Simon

[SP7]

I'm about to BK in GW3, due fuel prices, but with 4 fleet groups 8-( My competitor commonality costs with 3 fleet groups is 35M/month (I asked, he told me, nice chap) mine are 170M/month! Shame cos all 500+ of my planes is in profit by and large. So that's a new lesson learnt!

Simon

I own the biggest fleet in GW3 and my commonality cost is $130M. Having 4 fleets is flushing money down a toilet no matter what stage of the game you're in.

[pasterya]

From the quick look I had and the previous information on this thread:

- Nubira started operations at LED before O2
- The routes served by both are the normal main destinations every airline would fly to: ATH, MAD, FRA, BCN....etc
- All the routes I saw, had only one flight per competitor so I cannot see any "attack".

I only see a big airline expanding normally from a new base it opened.

This is an airline business simulation and competition is of course a big part of it.

Enjoy the challenge and adapt or look for a different airport, the world is huge

Cheers!
Mike

Mike, thanks
Of course competition is the base of this game. But, look on the strategies of most players. The strategy is to find base. In China, Africa wherever  else.
But it's a good idea to grow a smaller base first and then go to bigger market.
All I wanted to say – rules of protection of new company no t really works