3 main flaws

[zoohead]

Hi everyone...

Good to see some different points being brought up to fine tune Airway Sim and make it even better.

I would like to add another, and this one really gets my gripe up!!! First of all I have seen a number of different airlines do this and to me is the most pathetic strategy out there. The example I give below is NOT a competitor of mine, so this is not an attack to remove them, etc....it's to point out that this area of the sim needs an immediate revamp.

Take a look below, the first example is morning departures ALL to the SAME destination. And then in the 2nd batch, amazingly the afternoon flights to the same destination.


1234567     ZZZ1173     0610 0810 A320       
1234567    ZZZ1157    0620    0820    A320       
1234567    ZZZ1313    0625    0825    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1175    0640    0840    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1349    0640    0840    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1159    0650    0850    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1309    0650    0850    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1177    0710    0910    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1161    0720    0920    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1317    0720    0920    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1179    0740    0940    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1163    0750    0950    A320    

1234567     ZZZ1315     1445  1645 A321       
1234567    ZZZ1183    1500    1700    A320    
1234567    ZZZ1351    1500    1700    A321    
1234567    ZZZ1167    1510    1710    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1311    1510    1710    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1185    1530    1730    A320     
1234567    ZZZ1169    1540    1740    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1319    1540    1740    A321        
1234567    ZZZ1187    1600    1800    A320        
1234567    ZZZ1171    1610    1810    A320    

Then the 3rd example...give me a break, an airline running pretty much 7 separate flights to the same destination all in 747's!!!

1234-67     ZZZ1131     1010  1355 B743            
123-567    ZZZ1105    1015    1400    B743        
12345-7    ZZZ1225    1045    1430    B743     
1-34567    ZZZ1101    1100    1445    B743        
123456-    ZZZ1227    1115    1500    B743        
12-4567    ZZZ1103    1130    1515    B743        
-234567    ZZZ1033    1200    1545    B743    

What I'm getting at, you simply should NOT be able to schedule like this...domestic routes, with awesome demand maybe different with smaller aircraft. But this is totally unrealistic, and prevents others from joining the sim and making a good contribution.

What many have to realise is that, winning the sim is not about having the most aircraft or money, because EVERY airline is different. You cannot compare an international operation with a purely domestic op. Anyone who starts at the beginning with a leased 747 can make good $$$...

Having an op with 30 aircraft making a 30% profit margin, owning important airport slots, etc is better than someone who has 300 aircraft making a 3% profit margin and simply dumps capacity and schedules stupid just to make up numbers.

Right, my rant over...

[masoniclight]

I still would like the second hub option.. but I am sure that is farther down Sami's list...

[deepblue501]

the more i play the more i realize that THE main flaw is the lack of advance scheduling.

At this moment winning this game is not about Strategy or cunning reasoning, clever tactics and good routes, but it is simply about being as much in front of the PC as possible!

honestly, with all the scheduling going on, the delivery of a/c, to really be winning at this game you need to be in front of the PC all the time, and i believe that should not be the aim of the game. You should be able to win because you invest well, buy the right planes, set up the right routes, choose a good base etc. It should be possible to do all this in advance, so you can go online once in a while and still have a chance at being one of the best.

I call upon all the airlines which are in the top 10 to confirm above. If they do not agree i will withdraw my thesis, but I am pretty sure that most of the top 10 guys have spent hours and hours online.

[Athriaxo]

Ok time for my "3 main flaws":

1. Balancing - While some make a lot of money doing things (as mentioned above) that in the real world would not work (as no airport would allow a airline taking up all slots with small planes if they have the facilitys for bigger ones) other things that in the real world would find a lot of interest (and actually have good numbers like my non stop london - tokyo flight) translate to me loosing millions?! how is it possible that if more ppl want to fly than can be transported and my image beeing as high as financially possible and my routes beeing marketed that i still loose so much money?

I have some awesome long range routes with high demand that are flown by lots of my planes but still i loose so much money its crazy! My staff costs are thru the roof and i dont even know why ... all im saying is it feels like it needs rebalancing ... i made wads of cash when i had about 20 airplanes less ?! but they all fly profitable routes!?! Its confusing as you dont get the information you need to figure out whats wrong if anything ...

2. Route Oversight - Once you get to a point where you have hundreds of routes it gets a little confusing ... it would help if there was a quick oversight giving not much information but instead only pointing out things that need checking out (yes i know there are different views but with so many routes even these dont help you gain oversight)

3. Costs - Some costs are just weird ... for example: Why does the C check of a 747 cost less than of a MD10-30? Its a difference of 1 less engine and half the capacity so even if it would be the same price it would still be weird! Another such thing is staff cost ... I realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well? Dont ticket prices go up with time as well as payment for your employees? Seems not, cause if I dare raise my prices by 10% all routes drop close to 0% LF!

[swiftus27]

I can not be in front of my computer.
I order aircraft smartly (at least used)
Figure out the time compression and you are set.

[Pike]

I can not be in front of my computer.
I order aircraft smartly (at least used)
Figure out the time compression and you are set.

I'm sorry, but you are no where near in the position to make that statement.  Your airline in Game 2 is a fraction of the size of either Blue's or mine for that matter.  You have 26 airplanes in Game 2.  26.  Yeah, that SHOULD be pretty easy.  I had to replace/rearrange 26 airplanes as just PART of my operations today.

So no, it's not that simple for a big operator with over 100 planes.  It's just not. 

Over the last 3 months, I have had to replace all of my DC-9's (12), half of my MD-80's (28), and all of my Fokker 50's (.  And replace about 8 of my A310's that were getting too old.  I ordered plenty smartly, as evidenced by my airline that has a 81% market share at a major airport, and carries more than 300,000 pax per week.  As I told you last time, when you have done that, holler back.  If the market were able to bear it, I would love being able to buy 3-4 planes per month to make C-checks and lease expirations easier.  As is, that isn't the way things are.  If I pass on those 8 A320's that just dropped on the market, how long will it be to pick up the ones I pass on?  What routes might be yanked from me while I'm waiting on them? 

[Sami]

3. Costs - Some costs are just weird ... for example: Why does the C check of a 747 cost less than of a MD10-30? Its a difference of 1 less engine and half the capacity so even if it would be the same price it would still be weird! Another such thing is staff cost ... I realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well?

The maintenance cost model is not that simple what you think.

You have probably compared a new 747 and old DC-10 .. which makes a huge difference to the costs. If you compare let's say new 747-200 and DC-10 then the 747 is more costly to maintain as it's bigger, but comparing 15y old -10 and a new 747-400 .. will most likely be the other way.

The staff amounts are modeled against real staff numbers, roughly. If you have a fleet of large planes (what I see you have if you are talking of dc10/747), they do require quite much flight crew as they are mainly used on longhaulers which require way longer layover times etc.

[swiftus27]

I'm sorry, but you are no where near in the position to make that statement.  Your airline in Game 2 is a fraction of the size of either Blue's or mine for that matter.  You have 26 airplanes in Game 2.  26.  Yeah, that SHOULD be pretty easy.  I had to replace/rearrange 26 airplanes as just PART of my operations today.

So no, it's not that simple for a big operator with over 100 planes.  It's just not. 

Over the last 3 months, I have had to replace all of my DC-9's (12), half of my MD-80's (28), and all of my Fokker 50's (.  And replace about 8 of my A310's that were getting too old.  I ordered plenty smartly, as evidenced by my airline that has a 81% market share at a major airport, and carries more than 300,000 pax per week.  As I told you last time, when you have done that, holler back.  If the market were able to bear it, I would love being able to buy 3-4 planes per month to make C-checks and lease expirations easier.  As is, that isn't the way things are.  If I pass on those 8 A320's that just dropped on the market, how long will it be to pick up the ones I pass on?  What routes might be yanked from me while I'm waiting on them? 

I am glad you went with the "im bigger than you" defense.  I also play in all 3 games right now and have about 70 planes across all of them and many more on order. 
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
If you want to complain a ton, then offer an alternative that makes good sense and wouldn't require an armada of programmers.

[Athriaxo]

The maintenance cost model is not that simple what you think.

You have probably compared a new 747 and old DC-10 .. which makes a huge difference to the costs. If you compare let's say new 747-200 and DC-10 then the 747 is more costly to maintain as it's bigger, but comparing 15y old -10 and a new 747-400 .. will most likely be the other way.

The staff amounts are modeled against real staff numbers, roughly. If you have a fleet of large planes (what I see you have if you are talking of dc10/747), they do require quite much flight crew as they are mainly used on longhaulers which require way longer layover times etc.

Ah, ok I see ... well guess Its: "Wait in line for new planes leaving production" just like everybody else ... its kinda stupid thou, since this way the used airplanes become useless since we lease em anyways theres not much difference in leasing cost but at the same time huge maintainance difference ... i think beeing able to lease new planes isnt possible in reality is it?

Maybe the difference that age makes in maintainance cost could be tuned down quite a lot to rebalance things more towards used planes, cus as it is the maintainance costs of my planes in my past airline attempt ruined me as i was only using used planes ... and i didnt even know why until now xD

[Kontio]

I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.

So is everyone else, and that is why we need pre-scheduling.

[swiftus27]

Personally, I think of this in a different way. 

Let's try to be constructive and find another thing that we can have/pay for while we are gone

For instance, if we get used planes, have an extra $50k be deducted from us each day so that we get a 2-5% increase airplane condition

[Pike]

I am glad you went with the "im bigger than you" defense.  I also play in all 3 games right now and have about 70 planes across all of them and many more on order. 
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
If you want to complain a ton, then offer an alternative that makes good sense and wouldn't require an armada of programmers.

Well of course I did---it's relevant to the argument for crying out loud.

Are you dense or someone who just likes to argue? 

[swiftus27]

No, I personally don't like to argue...

I just dont want another protracted hardcore vs casual gamer war. 

No one ever wins that one, and the truth is that I am on your side.  They made so many MMOs only good for those who can afford to put in 100 hours per week.  I don't play them.  Goallineblitz is a great example of a game that both casual and hardcore can both play.  It too is an online HTML-based game.

Listen, I have a full time job, a part time job 6 months of the year, a house, wife...... you get the picture.  I have a life unlike a lot of people who play MMOs non-stop for hours on end.   Personally, I'd hope Sami would focus his efforts elsewhere. 

[Talentz]

Ah, ok I see ... well guess Its: "Wait in line for new planes leaving production" just like everybody else ... its kinda stupid thou, since this way the used airplanes become useless since we lease em anyways theres not much difference in leasing cost but at the same time huge maintainance difference

I dont follow.. Of the 230+ some odd aircraft I have, over 150 aircraft I pulled from the used market. Of which all my 747s (60+) came from the used market as well.

You dont have to wait in line for new aircraft. Planes come on the used market every 3 hours. The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also after Sami made the days "random". Before it was on x day always.  


Maintenance of older aircraft can kill you in the long term. Each aircraft has a bracket. 1~8//9~16//17~24 .  Its best to replace aircraft after 8 years. But not always practical. Each of those brackets has a different % increase in maintenance. Think in terms of simplicity, (10%), (20%) (30%) (more then original 0.00 yr base cost maintenance). Keep that in mind with leasing aircraft. Know when to "cut and run" on them.

I realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well? Dont ticket prices go up with time as well as payment for your employees? Seems not, cause if I dare raise my prices by 10% all routes drop close to 0% LF!

Well, I assume you have it on "auto" right? Auto is not the most efficient way to run an airline. It hires 5% more then what you need and approves all raises, no questions asked.

Now, because of this.. when you were small.. 5% of 10m was not much right? But.. as you grow that 5% becomes more and more. Which is why the manual clearly states that once your airline gets very big, hire/fire/raise staff manually. Auto starts to work against you 2-3 years into the game.

Furthermore, for pay raises. You do know that your staff asks for a pay raise Twice a year? Each time they ask for a raise, its between 3%-5%.. every 6months. Thats up to 10% a year increase. When left unchecked, this is why your staff costs explode. Your having to spread the higher costs on your aircraft. Further reducing your profit margin per aircraft.

If you havent figured it out, your overhead costs increase as you grow bigger and older.

Remember a few years back when when JetBlue started up? They were rapidly growing for the first 2-3 years.. yet.. by the 4th year, there growth wasnt as strong. People wondered why's that? Simple, those new aircraft, werent so new after 4-5 years.. those new employees at cheap wages werent so new after 4-5 years. Costs increase over time...

Same with AWS. Costs increase as your airline grows and gets old. Its Your job to figure out the increases and work to solve them. The game is much, much deeper then "order aircraft" "set schedule" "rinse and repeat".

The game is a pretty close model to a business simulation, as stated on the front page. It should be treated as such.. if you want to make claims of "best airline ect."


Dont be discouraged by not asking questions or for hints/help/advice. Most of the beta players are here to and have already helped (tried, at least) the newer player base.


Talentz

[Pike]

No, I personally don't like to argue...

I just dont want another protracted hardcore vs casual gamer war. 

No one ever wins that one, and the truth is that I am on your side.  They made so many MMOs only good for those who can afford to put in 100 hours per week.  I don't play them.  Goallineblitz is a great example of a game that both casual and hardcore can both play.  It too is an online HTML-based game.

Listen, I have a full time job, a part time job 6 months of the year, a house, wife...... you get the picture.  I have a life unlike a lot of people who play MMOs non-stop for hours on end.   Personally, I'd hope Sami would focus his efforts elsewhere. 

OK cool, but as someone who can relate I can't imagine why you'd object to the request.  Agree to disagree I suppose.

That said, the game is awesome and that's pretty outstanding considering it is still in its infancy.

[Pike]

Dont be discouraged by not asking questions or for hints/help/advice. Most of the beta players are here to and have already helped (tried, at least) the newer player base.

Awesome info there Talentz!



SP/Edit: Reply 1 line, original message 50 lines ... pls strip the quote a bit shorter.

[Sami]

The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also after Sami made the days "random".

Have to make the crappy 'randomizer' a bit better I see

[Athriaxo]

I dont follow.. Of the 230+ some odd aircraft I have, over 150 aircraft I pulled from the used market. Of which all my 747s (60+) came from the used market as well.

You dont have to wait in line for new aircraft. Planes come on the used market every 3 hours. The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also after Sami made the days "random". Before it was on x day always.  


Maintenance of older aircraft can kill you in the long term. Each aircraft has a bracket. 1~8//9~16//17~24 .  Its best to replace aircraft after 8 years. But not always practical. Each of those brackets has a different % increase in maintenance. Think in terms of simplicity, (10%), (20%) (30%) (more then original 0.00 yr base cost maintenance). Keep that in mind with leasing aircraft. Know when to "cut and run" on them.

Well its kinda hard to know that stuff when youre new especially as I imagine that plane parts should become cheaper instead of more expensive as technology gets older?! Usually newer technology = higher costs ...

Also youre not the only one getting his airplanes from the used market... when i look at it i cannot find what im looking for most of the time (as i am limited to less than 8 yr old airbus now since I dont wanna looser another airline to exploding costs!) I dont know how bad the commonality extra costs would be if i just took whatever is there and has the right age ... i think commonality should be weighted heavier than plane age since when you have over 50 planes of the same type (DC10-30) even if they are old you would have a giant hall full with maintainance parts for those planes ...

[Seattle]

Well its kinda hard to know that stuff when youre new especially as I imagine that plane parts should become cheaper instead of more expensive as technology gets older?! Usually newer technology = higher costs ...

Also youre not the only one getting his airplanes from the used market... when i look at it i cannot find what im looking for most of the time (as i am limited to less than 8 yr old airbus now since I dont wanna looser another airline to exploding costs!) I dont know how bad the commonality extra costs would be if i just took whatever is there and has the right age ... i think commonality should be weighted heavier than plane age since when you have over 50 planes of the same type (DC10-30) even if they are old you would have a giant hall full with maintainance parts for those planes ...

Commonality is perhaps the most weighted thing in costs, especially in the beggining and if you have a lot of a/cs. It obviously wont be if you have alot of the same planes.

For example, there was an airline in the very last beat ( I think), based in Oslo. He had something like 100 planes, all different. He didnt last more than a year after getting above like 50 different kinds of planes. 

[Talentz]

For example, there was an airline in the very last beat ( I think), based in Oslo. He had something like 100 planes, all different. He didnt last more than a year after getting above like 50 different kinds of planes.

Mm your talking about Sundaypilot's airline. He solely tested the effects of fleet commonality with that airline.  Was kinda funny he was bigger then most normal airlines.. 

I would consider him the top person to consult with on fleet common effects/costs ect. Well, besides Sami xD


~ Oh, sorry Sami. It took the better part of an off day last week to figure it out. Though, when the work weeks starts up again, I lose track of the days. It takes me a few (game) weeks to figure out the pattern on my next day off. 


Talentz