Borrow money to buy plane and use it as security

[dobbs1996]

Have you actually nothing better to do than just keep putting up posts about how easy the game is and how my original idea would make the game too easy and how wrong our opinions are. They are just opinions. Your problem is you have your head too far up your own ar*e you cannot listen to reasoning.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

You know what you all suck!  But I love you all still

Some of you guys can't even make it work at big airports (Jona L. For example just BK'd in DOTM 2)

Its not impossible to make it at smaller airports, just look at my current airline FlyEurope based in Belfast then opened a base in Glasgow (DOTM 2).

New players just have to be patient and I promise you'll make it an airport with 45% or above, anything below and it'll be difficult.

The successful players in this game/simulation are the ones that set themselves a task and accomplish it, not the people that are at the top spot.  Because let me tell you just because an airline is #1 doesn't mean the CEO is...

Now stop bickering on this and get back to running your airline, and BE NICE!

Love,
J. Oates

[Curse]

Have you actually nothing better to do than just keep putting up posts about how easy the game is and how my original idea would make the game too easy and how wrong our opinions are. They are just opinions. Your problem is you have your head too far up your own ar*e you cannot listen to reasoning.

Your opening post doesn't include a single argument. Sigmas's professional and smart answer with arguments was finished with a "I still think.." by your side.

Maybe you should start to give reasons about your idea? At the moment there's still nothing one can discuss.

(Jona L. For example just BK'd in DOTM 2)

His airline was doing very well and I asked him to do so (our initial plan to control Japan with two players failed). It's not his fault, so please exclude him from this.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

His airline was doing very well and I asked him to do so. It's not his fault, so please exclude him from this.

Damn bro if you can just ask people to BK and they do it, I think you've pretty much mastered Airwaysim :p

Apologies

[Dave4468]

Come on, seriously.

I never ever based in Europe/EU except Palma de Mallorca in my first game world.

Europe isn't the point, the point is the high demand short haul flights.

Also most "big guys" are not interested in the BAC 1-11 or the EMB-110 you use at the moment.

Well, they were almost all bought new.

Why limiting them? Please explain this one in detail.

Because a large player such as your good self will appear at a big airport and dominate it.

Please tell me what happened in detail.

I had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

Are you good at math? I spent 13 years in school and I'm not good at math. How will you excuse yourself in this? It's odd you haven't excused yourself since now for being better in math than I am.

Not quite sure how this is related to anything.

This airline doesn't exist anymore in DotM. But the current one at Johannesburg doesn't seem this well, too, so it's possible to base their and get advantage of him within some years. Why don't you try it?

No, that was my airline that suffered to the big player above. MT3.

Thats why I spend a lot of time while being in Demo gameworld and in Beginners Game.

How?

I also started to note down things - before game worlds and while I play them. For example this is something out of my notes about Early Days, my first game world after I left AWS for some month:
- starting with C-46, alternatively DC-3
- order DC-4 and DC-6, but DC-6 has priority
- try to order new aircraft as late as possible. queue is growing fast and having a fleet type with 2-3 aircraft for some month is not good

I do the exact same. My Karoo Air example above;

- Use B763ERs to start. Save money and buy, when they become available, B772/3 and more B763ER used.
- Once I've got some money one by one orders of B773s and B764 and replace.  (worked up until here in the last MT)
- Keep ordering B77W and B764s, when they become available A380 for slot restricted high demand routes, such as LHR.

Didn't work because the big player got me halfway through the second point.

And now you blame me I might be more successful than somebody who joins randomly an airport, got some aircraft from the market and thinks about what to do with it?

I suspect you may be in the minority to that degree of micromanagement.

I have said what I said and I justified it more than good enough in my eyes. If this word is a very big offense and insults also your family, your pet and your home town, this wasn't my intention. It's just the word my dictionaries tell me for somebody not telling the truth with intent or due to lack of information.

I'm not out on some smear campaign and I am just saying what does happen by ALL of the big players, not just you specifically.

Maybe.

Or just stop whining and giving up yourself and join a bigger airport in the US (easy and good for practice) like La Guardia or Ft. Lauderdale or Kansas City if you really feel not able to choose one of the bigger ones like Manchester, Seattle or Barcelona.

I'm not whining, I'm making a point.  Why do I and, lets be frank, the majority of users, have to be content with the status quo where we pay our £, $ or Euros and don't get the experience we want while others do?

Please understand I'm not on this list for you anymore.

Damn...

[Curse]

Damn bro if you can just ask people to BK and they do it, I think you've pretty much mastered Airwaysim :p

Apologies

I offered him free cookies.

Just kidding. We skyped and due to our failed Japan strategy he tries something that's, funny enough, main part of this topic. Joining an airport with a very well established airline lately and see what happens.

[dobbs1996]

Your opening post doesn't include a single argument. Sigmas's professional and smart answer with arguments was finished with a "I still think.." by your side.

Maybe you should start to give reasons about your idea? At the moment there's still nothing one can discuss.

My original post was does anyone agree if it is a good idea to be able to borrow money to buy an aircraft and use the aircraft as a security.
Then I said "Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft."
Then dan380 said"He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place."
which is exactly what I meant.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

Cmon lads stop this silly crap... lets all disagree to disagree, no more guys, were all close on here lets not make it uncomfortable, we have a close net of people on here so I for one would like to keep it like this.

come on for love of Aviation!

[Curse]

Europe isn't the point, the point is the high demand short haul flights.

Nooo! It's the fact shorter routes, even with less pax, are better than far away ones with more pax!

Well, they were almost all bought new.

As my fleet. So what's the problem?

Because a large player such as your good self will appear at a big airport and dominate it.

Nope. The top30 airports can host 2 or 3 very big airlines or much more smaller ones. If you act a bit smart out of Chicago or even Dulles it's nearly impossible you get bankrupt.

I had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

Sounds strange. B767-300ER and 400ER as well as B777 should able to compete good with DC-10. However, just able to conjecture about what happend and why.

Not quite sure how this is related to anything.

You blame good players for good at AWS. It's just fair if we could blame your for things you are good at

How?

Oops. The sentence is unfinished. I spend a lot of time in the forums while I was in the Demo and Beginner game world.

I suspect you may be in the minority to that degree of micromanagement.

I'm sure I'm in minority. But that's a key to success. I'm not going to blame people that just want to have a bit of fast fun. I do this in other games or things I'm not this successful, too.

I'm not whining, I'm making a point.  Why do I and, lets be frank, the majority of users, have to be content with the status quo where we pay our £, $ or Euros and don't get the experience we want while others do?

While this is not the fault of the gamers, it's the fault of people that aren't able to achieve their dreams.

It's simply not possible to have a game world of 500 people and 500 people having exactly what they every imagined.

Like everything in life some people are better and some are not this good. But as in all these things you can improve yourself increase your skill and fun if that's what you want.

Damn...

Send some cookies to my Swiss bank account and maybe we can be friend again.

[Curse]

My original post was does anyone agree if it is a good idea to be able to borrow money to buy an aircraft and use the aircraft as a security.
Then I said "Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft."
Then dan380 said"He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place."
which is exactly what I meant.

Ok. Now a new game world begins.

I order 700x A330-300 with your suggested feature in the first 24 hours.

Is this what you had in mind?

[dobbs1996]

Ok. Now a new game world begins.

I order 700x A330-300 with your suggested feature in the first 24 hours.

Is this what you had in mind?

You already made that point and I gave a solution, but just in case you didn't understand i'll say it again
As I said if you limit the amounts of funds you can borrow this would not be a problem.

[Curse]

What aircraft you want to buy with the very low loan possibilities you have at the start of a game world? And why buy it and not get a normal loan and lease ten of them?

I just can't imagine how to use this, this is why I ask you what precise situation you had in mind when this idea was posted here by you.

[kone_alta]

I had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

For your case in MT1, I'd say you are lucky enough already, since the player you've mentioned, according to my poor memory, flying with lots of 747 even he bankrupted once after 911 or something(second time during high fuel price periods because of same reason)
My understanding: you can stop him growing him at first place already, and filling the route you've mentioned is the utmost important.
Also I don't really see the reason of using 767(except 764ER), except 764 other variant cannot make good profit when fuel price is sky high. 777 consumes more fuel and expensive to operate, especially if they are not owned. Eventually the company becomes so vulnerable that like an empty eggshell under the wind - being blown away and broken

So something interest me alot, do you feel your playing skills improved after BKed ?

[thedr2]

Alright guys look. I've been here for a fair while and I've played the game from the big airports and the small.
Dave did have a point that, other than the early competition, the big airports tend to quickly develop into one, or sometimes two, big guys. These guys have it easy, and the only difficulty is in prying yourself away from real life to schedule all those planes you keep ordering. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of small airports and different locations.
However, Curse is also correct in that basically he's just playing AirwaySim. That's how it works. He's defeated the competition (or they defeated themselves  ) and his reward for his good management is being able to become one of the largest airlines in the game. There are several very good manuals on how to create a profitable airline. If you want to start at the big airports, be there from DAY ONE and be prepared to put a lot of effort in those early years.
You will probably have more luck starting from a slightly smaller airport. Brizzle is perhaps a little too small. Do not rush fleet decisions. Make a note of all the aircraft you could buy, with the capacity and range you require, and rule them out one-by-one until you find the most economical aircraft to fit the bill. Out of Bristol, even at full size you will have 2 fleet types at most. Try to keep to one.

Either way. We don't need anymore long-winded aimless debates.

[dobbs1996]

The exact situation is midway through the game when an aircraft is struggling they can only borrow around$500000 which is not even enough to lease a short haul jet aircraft eg. B737-800 or A320-200. Where as with a security they can borrow up to $25000000(25 million). With this they could buy a used 737 orA320. One aircraft could make the difference for a struggling airline.
I accept ypur point that it may make the game too easy but you would not ave to take up the loan. Nobody would be forcing you.

[slither360]

The exact situation is midway through the game when an aircraft is struggling they can only borrow around$500000 which is not even enough to lease a short haul jet aircraft eg. B737-800 or A320-200. Where as with a security they can borrow up to $25000000(25 million). With this they could buy a used 737 orA320. One aircraft could make the difference for a struggling airline.
I accept ypur point that it may make the game too easy but you would not ave to take up the loan. Nobody would be forcing you.

But it does force it upon you. If all of your competitors are doing it, you have the choice of doing it or being driven to bankruptcy.

[dobbs1996]

But if you can be sucesful withought it then no.

[slither360]

But if you can be sucesful withought it then no.

You can be successful, but not as successful.

Since AWS has finite demand, being able to schedule just 1 plane before you is a huge profit advantage, a huge route image advantage, and a huge marketshare advantage.

Long story short, your competitor will bankrupt you unless you do the same, and not only that, you do it first.

[Dave4468]

For your case in MT1, I'd say you are lucky enough already, since the player you've mentioned, according to my poor memory, flying with lots of 747 even he bankrupted once after 911 or something(second time during high fuel price periods because of same reason)
My understanding: you can stop him growing him at first place already, and filling the route you've mentioned is the utmost important.
Also I don't really see the reason of using 767(except 764ER), except 764 other variant cannot make good profit when fuel price is sky high. 777 consumes more fuel and expensive to operate, especially if they are not owned. Eventually the company becomes so vulnerable that like an empty eggshell under the wind - being blown away and broken

So something interest me alot, do you feel your playing skills improved after BKed ?

I think somewhere we are getting wires crossed. In the previous MT world (the one before the current one) I was Karoo Air (and always have been) and did go BK because of a big fleet of B747s.

That is why I planned to avoid them in the current MT3 world but I got pushed out by yourself IIRC when you made a very big A340 order and duplicated my routes.

I don't know if my playing skills have improved. I don't get the chance to try them again in a similar place.

[dobbs1996]

I don't mean you can schedule it before you buy it just up to a month before delivery like it currently is.