Borrow money to buy plane and use it as security

[Dave4468]

That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail.

What makes people fail is their impatience and the absence of wisdom because they haven't read the manual and/or the FAQ and Guide.

No it isn't. I currently have an airline with two fleet groups, I don't open a new route till I have filled the ones I have open. I try to do what we are always told by people like your good self will make us succeed. I make only just $300,000 p/w. I'm based in Bristol, it's not a small airport. It's not possible to make a decent airline there. My only option is to open a second base, which according to you will be "easy", it'll B/K me.

Yeah, all big players have this cool money cheat. But pssscht, don't tell anybody, it's a secret.

But you do. You base in the big airports, exploit the fact that fleet commonality means nothing, buy a heap of cheap planes, quickly fill the big fat routes like LHR - CDG/AMS/FRA, make a pile of money, order a ton more planes off the used market and start to fill order ques. That means by the time everyone else can afford the next 737, A320, DC10 or MD82 they've already all gone.

That's insulting and simply wrong.

It's not easy to push players out of the game, especially at the beginning where every route is uncovered.

That's by the way something you should learn, too. Look at your own actions instead of blaming the bad big guys all around there.

Ok then, you know how to make a super airline from anywhere. Tell me what I should do at Bristol, not a small airport, how do I make more money there?

You making a fool out of yourself if you really believe this. Why exactly "AWS gods" (whatever this is) are responsible for other people's actions?

I'm not saying you're responsible for others actions, I'm saying that players like you make in damn near impossible to start a big airline from a big airport because someone like you will be there and will be immediately dominant.

You base at small airports and wonder why some people run big and successful airlines and you're not? Is this really a question one must answer to you?

And yes, it is too easy. I have justified why.

I base at small airports because I know that while I may end up with a small airline I will end up with an airline. I'd love to spend a game playing from Heathrow but I know a big player will base there and it will be a waste of my time and money. (Not an attack on Jona, same for any big airport)

Because I pay credits to have fun. And my fun is to create good and at least half-way big airlines. This isn't possible out of Unalaska due to static demand system.

I pay credits to have fun, everyone on AWS pays credits to have fun. I just know I can't have the fun I wan't because someone like you will crush me.

And, honestly. People aren't just successful because they base at a big airport. No skill is no skill, even the base changed from Glasgow or Cologne to Heathrow or Tokyo.

Put your money where your mouth is. Next game base at some provincial airport like Bristol, or somewhere without the short haul high demand routes like Cape Town, prove that your skill will overcome everything else.

Your attitude is why Valve made Counter-Strike (Source) easy, Blizzard made the WoW raids and heroic instances easy etc. Nobody is willing to invest some time and brain. Everybody is in need of the big fat success without doing anything.

But let me say - people with this attitude would also fail even sami gave them hundred A330-300 at the game world start and exclusive slots. They are always digging their own grave.

I don't care that you are better than me, there is always someone better than me. I care about the fact I pay the same amount of money as you but can't actually do what I want. I have only had one properly successful airline, once from Jo'burg when I didn't have a big player, FYI in the current MT I tried it again using the same tactic that was successful last time and was greeted by a big player who, guess what, squished me. I've run numerous airlines that just worked and made some money but not enough to make it fun.

And Jona, you say I need to learn the basics and practice. How do you suggest I do it? There is no practice world (hint hint) and if I practice in a "live" I will end up wasting my money.

[Curse]

No it isn't. I currently have an airline with two fleet groups, I don't open a new route till I have filled the ones I have open. I try to do what we are always told by people like your good self will make us succeed. I make only just $300,000 p/w. I'm based in Bristol, it's not a small airport. It's not possible to make a decent airline there. My only option is to open a second base, which according to you will be "easy", it'll B/K me.

Bristol isn't a small airport but also not a big one. If you make not enough money there, this could have many causes. I don't know your airline in detail and I don't think you will have me a look at, so the only thing I can say is: choose a bigger airport if you think Bristol limits your profit.

But you do. You base in the big airports, exploit the fact that fleet commonality means nothing, buy a heap of cheap planes, quickly fill the big fat routes like LHR - CDG/AMS/FRA, make a pile of money, order a ton more planes off the used market and start to fill order ques.

You're a liar. It seems you have absolutely no clue about my game play and my strategies.

I take care of my fleet categories and tell people to take care on this gameplay aspect too! And I never fill the "big fat" long-haul routes first! My strategy is ALWAYS based on short-haul! And I never buy out cheap crappy aircraft, I'm no follower of this secured loan strategy and I never have used it!

Maybe you should do a bit of research before you try to blame others. This wouldn't make you look like a damn liar as at the moment.

That means by the time everyone else can afford the next 737, A320, DC10 or MD82 they've already all gone.

That's simply not true, too. I'm not able to monitor the used market 24/7 and the limit of 2 aircraft/day and 6/week would also kick in.

Ok then, you know how to make a super airline from anywhere. Tell me what I should do at Bristol, not a small airport, how do I make more money there?

After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

I'm not saying you're responsible for others actions, I'm saying that players like you make in damn near impossible to start a big airline from a big airport because someone like you will be there and will be immediately dominant.

Ok. Next time I bankrupt myself because you opened my eyes. The real goal in AirwaySim is not that I have fun, it's to sacrifice myself and my skill to allow it everybody else to have fun. Silly me.


Oh, wait. What really happens if there is no "good" airline you can see at London Heathrow in the current DotM. A bunch of airlines, one worser than the other, tries not to fail like about 20 airlines that tried in the same game world there before.
But for sure this is also the work of us "big guys". At night we meet and sing some dark witch songs to make people fail even at airports no one of "us" is based. But that's also a secret, don't tell anyone.

I base at small airports because I know that while I may end up with a small airline I will end up with an airline. I'd love to spend a game playing from Heathrow but I know a big player will base there and it will be a waste of my time and money. (Not an attack on Jona, same for any big airport)

So what you are exactly complaining about?

Why don't you try basing out of Heathrow? Maybe you won't have the biggest airline there, but hell, if you stick only to the half of tricks and things that are necessary to build a successful airline you should be able to survive till the end.

I pay credits to have fun, everyone on AWS pays credits to have fun. I just know I can't have the fun I wan't because someone like you will crush me.

Normally I would laugh loud, because I never crush smaller airlines with unexperienced players and instead trying to help them. And all big players I know handle this the same way.

Unfortunately I will rethink this after your offenses in this thread.

Put your money where your mouth is. Next game base at some provincial airport like Bristol, or somewhere without the short haul high demand routes like Cape Town, prove that your skill will overcome everything else.

And then you're whining about this cruel Curse that based in your nice little airport and made your airline look worse. As I said - skill and success are mainly not addicted to airport size.

But don't worry. My airport for the next game world is already choosen and I have a strategy for it. Maybe another argument why I'm successful and others not - I think about my future actions, write it down and eliminate errors before they can happen in the game.

I don't care that you are better than me,

Was this before you started to offend me? Or is it just something that happens in your own little world?

I care about the fact I pay the same amount of money as you but can't actually do what I want.

You pay money for the possibility to play. It's new to me sami guarantees everybody to be successful.

FYI in the current MT I tried it again using the same tactic that was successful last time and was greeted by a big player who, guess what, squished me.

Which airport you were based at and which airline was this?

And Jona, you say I need to learn the basics and practice. How do you suggest I do it? There is no practice world (hint hint) and if I practice in a "live" I will end up wasting my money.

If you can't afford the cent a day, why don't you just look out the windows? As far as I know it's at no charge and hardly some big guy will come and is better in the "looking out the window thing".

Otherwise just learn. I haven't got a single PM from your side about help. Even I wrote in many of your threads and as you pointed out you know I'm a successful big guy. Why just haven't you asked? Like all the other people that ask me or others and get help?

Is this also too difficult for you?

[dobbs1996]

Quote: Because I pay credits to have fun. And my fun is to create good and at least half-way big airlines. This isn't possible out of Unalaska due to static demand system.

I also pay credits to have fun and I cannot do this from airports such as Unalaska which are the only airports left after people like you base at the big airports. It does not matter if others who based at tokyo failed and you didn't the fact is that it is not possible to make as much profits at smaller airports that are left. The other five you mentioned probably failed due to overexpansion and then lack of slots from big airlines like yours.

[slither360]

Honestly I hate this behaviour. Why it's a must to disclaim if one is good or better than others in such a specific category?

Doesn't seem like you feel this during our skype chats

[Sami]

You're a liar. It seems you have absolutely no clue about my game play and my strategies.
...
Maybe you should do a bit of research before you try to blame others. This wouldn't make you look like a damn liar as at the moment.
...
After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

Cool it down; (not going to say this again).

[Curse]

I also pay credits to have fun and I cannot do this from airports such as Unalaska which are the only airports left after people like you base at the big airports. It does not matter if others who based at tokyo failed and you didn't

Oho. So many big guys out there? Funny thing I just could name up to 10, while there are about 100-200 airports offering demand for an airline with more than 100 aircraft and all Top40 airports or so offer enough demand for two or three big airlines.

But nice to see what weird things you imagine just to clarify out how bad the big guys are. It's the same thing as damning all the politicans and managers for every bad thing that happens.


And yes, it matters if others failes. It shows people that have no idea about things why others failed to disable their weak arguments.

the fact is that it is not possible to make as much profits at smaller airports that are left. The other five you mentioned probably failed due to overexpansion and then lack of slots from big airlines like yours.

Yeah? And? Everybody had the same chances at game world start and even at this moment there are some very nice airports ready to build up a big airline or just to compete with weaker big airlines.

But it's normal an airport like Atlanta or Heathrow offers you more profit than Manchester or Munich.

And no, I haven't catched all the slots. They BKd because of their failures. Please stop developing scenarios in your mind and stick to the facts. In this case they failed on their own. Without my help or the help of others. End of story.

[slither360]

Cool it down; (not going to say this again).

Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

[Jona L.]

Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

Exactly!

[Ilyushin]

Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

+1

[alexgv1]

Funny what one small comment can kick off 

[dobbs1996]

Quote from curse at 07:12:50 PM
"And yes, it matters if others failes. It shows people that have no idea about things why others failed to disable their weak arguments."

Others failed because they cannot compete with the big airlines, and people like you cannot understand what it is like to fail because they had instant sucess because they never based at a small airport. You are missing the point!!!

[dobbs1996]

Curse you tell us to base at big airports and there is still room to base here. You also said quote "That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail"   
"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

[alexgv1]

Curse you tell us to base at big airports and there is still room to base here. You also said quote "That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail"   
"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

Those guides are for newbs though, maybe it's not advisable for your first game world and then when you consider yourself a "big boy" you can then move onto them once you've mastered the basics.

(Or maybe it's Curse's conspiracy to keep players from the top bases so he has them to himself  )

[Curse]

I was based at Palma de Mallorca in my first game and in Beginners World at Moscow Domodedowo for some time and I had many closer looks at airlines of friends of mine based out of small airports - Belfast and Jersey, Stuttgart and Tel Aviv.

And what exactly makes you think I'm not able to understand how it is to fly out of small bases? Mainly because I know how it feels like I don't base there.
That's basically the same thing with fire. I know what fire is, but I don't burn myself  - although I really enjoy the idea that is behind fire and heat, especially when it's winter time.

"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

I said:
"and even at this moment there are some very nice airports ready to build up a big airline or just to compete with weaker big airlines."

Please explain to me how this (and the other statement of myself you quoted) collides with the game description, that's the thing you actually quoted. By the way, the manual can be found here: https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual

(Or maybe it's Curse's conspiracy to keep players from the top bases so he has them to himself  )

Yeah, that's the secret strategy behind all of this. There is no DanDante, there is no Quinoky, there is no Jona L. and nobody else you ever see in the Top10. That's all me with my multi-accounts I use to prepare myself for world domination! Muahahaha! 



No, seriously. I try to help as good and as often I can because I prefer competition and everybody has fun. That's why I wrote the FAQ and give away my spreadsheets and guides via alliance forums and PM.
But I will and can not accept some offenses, especially when people try to tell stories that are opposite to what I actually do and think. And also that is what makes me really sad and angry.

[Dave4468]

I take care of my fleet categories and tell people to take care on this gameplay aspect too! And I never fill the "big fat" long-haul routes first! My strategy is ALWAYS based on short-haul! And I never buy out cheap crappy aircraft, I'm no follower of this secured loan strategy and I never have used it!

Thats not what I said, I said about the filling out of the fat short haul routes, LHR to Paris, or any of the others I said. Which is exactly what you just admitted to.

That's simply not true, too. I'm not able to monitor the used market 24/7 and the limit of 2 aircraft/day and 6/week would also kick in.

I'm not saying you pick off everything aggressively, I'm saying that the players who base over and over in the big airports will always be able to pick all the good stuff off the used market by using the same tactic long before a lot of others can. It's true, that cannot be denied.

After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

Sarcasm my good man.

Ok. Next time I bankrupt myself because you opened my eyes. The real goal in AirwaySim is not that I have fun, it's to sacrifice myself and my skill to allow it everybody else to have fun. Silly me.

Again, not what I said, I am simply saying that the same big players base in the same places over and over thus limiting alot of other people.

So what you are exactly complaining about?

Why don't you try basing out of Heathrow? Maybe you won't have the biggest airline there, but hell, if you stick only to the half of tricks and things that are necessary to build a successful airline you should be able to survive till the end.

Because I have tried it before, not at LHR but still a big demand airport and you wouldn't believe what happened...

Was this before you started to offend me? Or is it just something that happens in your own little world?

No, I don't care.

You pay money for the possibility to play. It's new to me sami guarantees everybody to be successful.

I didn't say that, it just seems odd that is fine for some players to spend their money and have fun but not for others.

Which airport you were based at and which airline was this?

Johannesburg, Karoo Air.

If you can't afford the cent a day, why don't you just look out the windows? As far as I know it's at no charge and hardly some big guy will come and is better in the "looking out the window thing".

I don't have the money to waste stuff all the time testing things.

Otherwise just learn. I haven't got a single PM from your side about help. Even I wrote in many of your threads and as you pointed out you know I'm a successful big guy. Why just haven't you asked? Like all the other people that ask me or others and get help?

Just never have, maybe that makes me a horrible person.

And for what its worth this is not meant to be an attack on you Curse or anyone else, it is just that there is a point where it becomes a grind not being able to do anything because the chances of running a big airline are not possible. I have, not, until now being accused of a liar and everything else, been out to attack anyone, but it would seem for having the bare faced tenacity to call bull on something that seems remarkably unfair to me and ended up in an argument with Curse has meant I have accrued the hate of most people on here.

I've not been impatient with this game, I have been playing for about a year and a half, have been in several different game worlds, run several different types of airline, read the manual, read the FAQs. I probably put too much time into this game.

Maybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy and there is a status quo that is going to stay.

[slither360]

Maybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy

Aha. So after all of this arguing, you come out and say that you AGREE with Curse.

This whole discussion was about the fact that implementing this idea would make the game easier, and therefore it was a bad idea. Then ABC said that the game needs to be easier because it is too hard, and Curse called the BS on that.

I completely agree, the game needs to become harder. But Sami doesn't have all the time in the world to spend on AWS :/

[Dave4468]

Aha. So after all of this arguing, you come out and say that you AGREE with Curse.

This whole discussion was about the fact that implementing this idea would make the game easier, and therefore it was a bad idea. Then ABC said that the game needs to be easier because it is too hard, and Curse called the BS on that.

I completely agree, the game needs to become harder. But Sami doesn't have all the time in the world to spend on AWS :/

Again, sarcasm. As I originally this game is easy if you know the tricks to make it easy, I DO NOT think it is easy. 

[slither360]

Again, sarcasm. As I originally this game is easy if you know the tricks to make it easy, I DO NOT think it is easy. 

That is dissappointing. I have always felt that AWS needed to get quite a bit harder

[alexgv1]

This DOTM#2 is a lot harder than DOTM#1 due to quicker surge in fuel prices, early spike, high average fuel and high interest rates. However I am also of the opinion that it became too easy because the fuel went down too soon to really punish people for their mistakes. Maybe that is a cruel view but I like to be rewarded for doing good business.

I think it is easier in these big bases so my advice, Dave, is to maybe try a bigger base many of the top 50 are unoccupied by the 10 or so "AWS gods" (they cannot be in all at once) and you might find that you make life easy for yourself rather than running a small airline (which you can see from the Fairchild and CRJ threads at the extreme end of the spectrum don't work). Or otherwise wait for the game developers to make small airlines easier to play by changing things for commuter airlines, or implementing city based demands.

I can kind of empathise with your frustration Dave as I didn't always run with the "big boys", I too never wanted mega airlines, but to satisfy a scenario in my head and stay under the radar of these players in the biggest airports. But there is an age old saying which we are all familiar with:

"If you can't beat them; join them"       

[Curse]

Thats not what I said, I said about the filling out of the fat short haul routes, LHR to Paris, or any of the others I said. Which is exactly what you just admitted to.

Come on, seriously.

I never ever based in Europe/EU except Palma de Mallorca in my first game world.

Also out of Paris or London it's a not very smart strategy to cover these routes first. If you start there, it's much more smart to choose a long-haul widebody like DC-10 or A330 and fly daily to New York, Toronto, etc.


What I admitted was the following thing, I take Tokyo Haneda, my current HQ, as example:
While Fukuoka and Sapparo are the most biggest routes, my first aircraft flew to Nagoya and Toyama.


It's also not the smartest move to fly to cities where (many) competition is based, so Heathrow - Charles de Gaulle would have no priority if I would base at one of those airports.

It's true, that cannot be denied.

Why? A friend of mine started out of Zurich and build up a very big fleet very fast. Another friend grabbed more B727 from the used market than I did and his base, Taipei, is not even a Top30 airport.

Also most "big guys" are not interested in the BAC 1-11 or the EMB-110 you use at the moment.

Again, not what I said, I am simply saying that the same big players base in the same places over and over thus limiting alot of other people.

Why limiting them? Please explain this one in detail.

Because I have tried it before, not at LHR but still a big demand airport and you wouldn't believe what happened...

Please tell me what happened in detail.

I didn't say that, it just seems odd that is fine for some players to spend their money and have fun but not for others.

Are you good at math? I spent 13 years in school and I'm not good at math. How will you excuse yourself in this? It's odd you haven't excused yourself since now for being better in math than I am.

Johannesburg, Karoo Air.

This airline doesn't exist anymore in DotM. But the current one at Johannesburg doesn't seem this well, too, so it's possible to base their and get advantage of him within some years. Why don't you try it?

I don't have the money to waste stuff all the time testing things.

Thats why I spend a lot of time while being in Demo gameworld and in Beginners Game.

I read nearly every thread in the general forums, many threads in the gameworld specific forums and I searched for players like Sigma and Talentz and read all their posts they ever made at AirwaySim. I also contacted Sigma and asked him some things that were suspicious to me.

I also started to note down things - before game worlds and while I play them. For example this is something out of my notes about Early Days, my first game world after I left AWS for some month:
- starting with C-46, alternatively DC-3
- order DC-4 and DC-6, but DC-6 has priority
- try to order new aircraft as late as possible. queue is growing fast and having a fleet type with 2-3 aircraft for some month is not good

I put much time and effort into AWS and success is the payment for it. I make screenshots of every quartal's finances to compare them in a new game world and I write twice a year a very detailed status report about my airline and I always reflect what I've done wrong or could have been done better.

It's not like sitting on the PC for 5 minutes, clicking a bit around and voila, three times the airline value the airline on the second place has.


I already started to plan my actions in the new game world - gathering routes, different aircraft for different strategies for different competitors.


And now you blame me I might be more successful than somebody who joins randomly an airport, got some aircraft from the market and thinks about what to do with it?

And for what its worth this is not meant to be an attack on you Curse or anyone else, it is just that there is a point where it becomes a grind not being able to do anything because the chances of running a big airline are not possible.

Why? Why in detail this isn't possible? Take a look at diskoerekto out of Zurich in DotM #2. Zurich is a small airport and this is his first game world. And he is doing well. I told some people I know it will not last many game worlds and he is one of the most biggest guys here.

So if this is possible for this complete Newbie. Why not for you?

I have, not, until now being accused of a liar and everything else, been out to attack anyone, but it would seem for having the bare faced tenacity to call bull on something that seems remarkably unfair to me and ended up in an argument with Curse has meant I have accrued the hate of most people on here.

I have said what I said and I justified it more than good enough in my eyes. If this word is a very big offense and insults also your family, your pet and your home town, this wasn't my intention. It's just the word my dictionaries tell me for somebody not telling the truth with intent or due to lack of information.


And don't care about the other people. You said things about me and my airline that I don't like on other airlines, too. I'm fully against the strategy to buy out scrap aircraft and use them for a secured loan. I'm totally against flying everything that has wings and I'm really upset at this moment that it seems to work again for some special player out of EGLL at the moment.

I didn't get everything in your sentence because I'm not good enough in English (maybe another thing that you should excuse to me - because you are much better in English than I am and it's not fair ) but hopefully got everything that's important.

Maybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy and there is a status quo that is going to stay.

Maybe.

Or just stop whining and giving up yourself and join a bigger airport in the US (easy and good for practice) like La Guardia or Ft. Lauderdale or Kansas City if you really feel not able to choose one of the bigger ones like Manchester, Seattle or Barcelona.

There are many people out here that always help if someone asks politely. DanDantes, BobtheCactus, Sigma, Daveos - just to name some. Please understand I'm not on this list for you anymore.