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Author Topic: Departure Punctuality question?  (Read 2055 times)

Airbus101

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Departure Punctuality question?
« on: June 18, 2012, 05:42:30 AM »
Im having an issue with Punctuality of my flights

my on time delays % has dropped to 74.3% and is staying there....

I have 179 flights 99% of them have turn times that are less them 1% delay, my fleet is average of 1.9 years, no aircraft is below 87% maintance most are in high 90's.  my staff is at 101% and moral is 100....


Why am I loosing Punctuality so fast, and why is it staying low...

I have 2 campaings now to compensate.... I'm having to spend alot of cash on marketing over $330,000 weekly... when my CI should be skyrocking from these campaigns but it barly staying same...

somone please tell me what Im missing

Offline Sami

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:08:46 PM »
What is the delay reason breakdown?

(also, for turnarounds.. Make sure you leave enough time to turn the plane at HOME base too, not just outstations. Use the same time between flights at Hq too, as in outstation turnarounds.)

Airbus101

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »
So when you hover over the schedule and it says next earilest departure thats defaults to 25% delay? :(
is there anyway to set that as a default to 1%?

when awayfrom home on my Ipad I can't hover so I cannot see the next earilest departure. when I click on my schedule it also does not show next earilest, then I go deeper and click edit route and still no next earilest flight.

AAL558

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »
That indicates the earliest departure. However, you never want to schedule it for the earliest departure as it will automatically give you a high chance in delays for the flight(s) that follow.

A Boeing 737 can turn around in about 40minutes. However, you want to give it about 1h10m to perform a turn to reduce the possibility of a delay to about 1%. And when you schedule the next route, you want to make sure you give that same amount of time to the next route. So even if it says the plane will arrive at 1000hrs and will be ready to depart at 1040hrs, you want to schedule it to depart at about 1110hrs. Now, mind you each aircraft has a different turn around time so this will vary. You just have to play around with your aircraft to figure how much time they need to perform efficiently.

Jona L.

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »
That indicates the earliest departure. However, you never want to schedule it for the earliest departure as it will automatically give you a high chance in delays for the flight(s) that follow.

A Boeing 737 can turn around in about 40minutes. However, you want to give it about 1h10m to perform a turn to reduce the possibility of a delay to about 1%. And when you schedule the next route, you want to make sure you give that same amount of time to the next route. So even if it says the plane will arrive at 1000hrs and will be ready to depart at 1040hrs, you want to schedule it to depart at about 1110hrs. Now, mind you each aircraft has a different turn around time so this will vary. You just have to play around with your aircraft to figure how much time they need to perform efficiently.

Well, I mus say, if we don't have a plane going to Turkey or Iran which are usually full of very slow, very heavy and very old people of foreign nature, 40 minutes is more than plenty to turn it around. Even if you only have one loading group (3 people) available, they are about as fast as the PAX boarding, usually faster. Fuelling is no big deal for a 737, 16tn (~5hr trip) is fueled in no more than 18-20 minutes, which is the time cleaning needs, and the cabin crew need for preparing the cabin.

De-boarding and Boarding take about 5-7 minutes for 180 PAX (each way), 20 if Turkey, Iran, North Africa or ME is the destination. Same goes for A318/9/20.

On a good day, an A320 with 140 PAX in- and out-bound (nearly full in AFL config), we can turn it in 25 minutes, 20 if we can get fire truck for PAX-on-board fueling.

On a bad day, an B738 of Pegasus (actually the one visible on the AWS picture ;) ) can take 2hrs, if you have 189 fat grannies aboard either ways, with a total of 300 baggage pieces both ways. Wheelchairs complete the fun :P (not to insult disabled people, but it just takes a lot of time to carry WCHR PAX into the a/c...)

FlyBe are actually the best in terms of TATs... 30 minutes for E190/5. Coming in 15mins early, taking 15 minutes to get finished, if all PAX are there, the plane leaves at its scheduled time of arrival... means additional 30 minutes of break for us ;D . Also, FlyBe are the most professional crews I ever saw (which may not mean much, as I don't know US-carriers, nor the Big Asian ones, nor the big European ones, just EK and EH. ). Beating Aeroflot, Turkish, and most others by a couple of plane legthes.

but getting off topic here, long story short is:

It all depends on the circumstances, if you can have a 15 minute TAT, or if you need 2h+ . Not that I think this is accurately modeled into AWS, but I think there is some random factor implemented, to simulate the alike.

cheers,
Jona L.

Airbus101

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 06:33:53 PM »
Well, seems I found my mystery... yes another learning curve... I assumed the next departure was 1% since it was not listed anywhere as a delay causing factor as a %. so all my flights were 1% on one end and 25% on the other end..

now the issue of rescheduling 179 flights that are packed together, I maxed out my planes... this is going to take a LOT of work to correct.

Offline Sami

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 07:51:48 PM »
De-boarding and Boarding take about 5-7 minutes for 180 PAX (each way)

just three words: "LOL.. no way".

Let me see where you can seat 180 pax to let's say an A320 in ~6 minutes from the time the boarding is started to the point the plane is ready to move actually (+ put their bag containers + random bulk bags in too), and using a regular airport's single jetway. ON A REGULAR BASIS (= to which you can base some real schedules).


(and not talking of any Ryanair-style cow slaughter boarding here...)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 07:54:39 PM by sami »

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 08:06:19 PM »
De-boarding and Boarding take about 5-7 minutes for 180 PAX (each way), 20 if Turkey, Iran, North Africa or ME is the destination. Same goes for A318/9/20.

I fly reasonably often and I have never seen an airline (at least not a US airline) either board or deboard 180 pax in 5-7 minutes. It usually takes more like 20-30 mins by the time everyone is seated, has their kids buckled in, and has their oversized carry-ons either stuffed somewhere or gate checked.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 08:37:33 PM »
De-boarding and Boarding take about 5-7 minutes for 180 PAX (each way), 20 if Turkey, Iran, North Africa or ME is the destination. Same goes for A318/9/20.

Well seeing as Jona works in the industry, I'm guessing that he has seen these things with his own eyes, rather than the occasional traveller or armchair expert.

According to Boeing in this document (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf), deboarding passengers takes 10 minutes and boarding passengers takes 15 minutes on a two class 737-800 with 177 pax (based on standard assumption of boarding at 12 pax per minute and deboarding at 18 pax per minute). Therefore not so ridiculous as what Jona is saying if people get a move on or the flight is less full.

Anyway not here for arguments or such, just putting some data on the table.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 08:37:52 PM »
So when you hover over the schedule and it says next earilest departure thats defaults to 25% delay? :(
is there anyway to set that as a default to 1%?

when awayfrom home on my Ipad I can't hover so I cannot see the next earilest departure. when I click on my schedule it also does not show next earilest, then I go deeper and click edit route and still no next earilest flight.

You only have 2 aircraft types now, right?
When you are scheduling a flight, during the turnaround at the remote station (which you choose without any hovering), see what time interval corresponds to a delay % you are comfortable with (for example, 1 h 25 mins for 5% delay on a 707, or 1 h 30 mins for a 1% delay on a 707; but it varies by aircraft size). And remember that interval, and spread flights out at your home base by the same time interval. E.g. if a 707 lands at 10:30am at your home base, and you want 5% delays only, schedule the next outbound flight no earlier than 11:55am.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 08:46:26 PM »
Well seeing as Jona works in the industry, I'm guessing that he has seen these things with his own eyes, rather than the occasional traveller or armchair expert.

Hi Alex!

Well, while I don't work in the airline industry, I do fly ~100,000 miles/yr, so I also see the boarding process with my own eyes reasonably often...

In the context of the UACO merger, for example, UA started boarding on narrow-body planes such as 757/737 30 minutes prior to departure, whereas CO starts boarding 45 minutes prior, and because the CO boarding process is less organized, they actually do take most of the 45 minutes, even if not all of it.
As discussed here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileageplus-consolidated/1320481-45-minute-boarding-time-narrow-body-aircraft-ua.html

According to Boeing in this document (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf), deboarding passengers takes 10 minutes and boarding passengers takes 15 minutes on a two class 737-800 with 177 pax (based on standard assumption of boarding at 12 pax per minute and deboarding at 18 pax per minute). Therefore not so ridiculous as what Jona is saying if people get a move on or the flight is less full.

IME, Boeing's estimates are optimistic. But Jona's stated times beat even Boeing's estimates by a factor of 2x to 3x.

However, I have seen flights board more quickly in some countries, such as Japan, where it seems that on average, most passengers tend to board in a more orderly fashion, taking more care to be considerate of other passengers (avoiding aisle blocking) and bring smaller and fewer carry-ons.

Southwest also seems to board faster due to the cattle call system they use, which allows people to take the first available seat and gives them motivation to pick a seat quickly (before someone else takes the "best" seat). But assigned-seat boarding takes longer.

Also, on a 2-class narrowbody, if the Y pax walk through F, the services airlines provide to F pax (such as pre-boarding F, and flight attendants walking up and down the F aisle collecting coats and handing out beverages) clog the boarding lane and slow down Y boarding. Airlines do this for passenger service/comfort reasons in F, but logistically, it hurts the boarding times. Southwest also does not have that problem because it has no F.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:50:14 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 08:51:42 PM »
IME, Boeing's estimates are optimistic. But Jona's stated times beat even Boeing's estimates by a factor of 2x to 3x.

Yeah of course, they are going to try and make their product sound good (same with all the number fiddling that went on with fuel burn estimates on new planes).

Quote
Southwest also seems to board faster due to the cattle call system they use, which allows people to take the first available seat and gives them motivation to pick a seat quickly (before someone else takes the "best" seat). But assigned-seat boarding takes longer.

I think non assigned seating will also speed up the process to some degree (hence they can achieve faster turnarounds), but Sami was speaking in general (i.e. excluding this).
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »
Re: Boarding

Is it just me or do the airlines board in a completely illogical manner.

Generally they use the door in the front.  It would make sense to first seat people all the way in the back of the aircraft, so that the first group of people just walk through the aircraft and are not blocking anybody by trying to fit bags in the overhead bins etc.

But no, they first seat people in the front of the aircraft.  And each one person trying to figure out how to fit their bags in the bins blocks 100+ people behind them...

Pax paying C/F seats are paying for the privilage, but boarding Y passengers is just backwards...

Jona L.

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 09:56:21 PM »
Just to clarify, I am talking of boarding as in PAX from Jetbridge into Plane, I don't care what happens between boarding desk and Jet Bridge ;)

and if -I repeat IF- boarding crews for once get "boarding by row" running, it works easily in 5-7 minutes. Last 753 I had it took 15 minutes for 260PAX via one jet-bridge through door number 2L.

And I repeat my above said, with good pax (not the average fat turkish granny with 5x 10Kg "hand baggage" bags going to Anatolia (please don't tell me this is not a good example... half of the flights I work at are that way ;) ) or drunk Palma de Mallorca fliers) it works. If you would have quoted the 2nd part of the sentence, you'd have noticed I made exceptions for these ;) . 15 minute TAT is what I regularly see on FlyBe E95 with 70 PAX down, 70 PAX up and 7 minutes fuelling (--> 8 mn for deboarding and boarding).
Most days the 189 PAX 738 take 15-20 minutes for boarding due to the above mentioned type of PAX, or one of the regular boarding computer break downs. But it IS possible. AFL A320 with 140 PAX (incl. 7C class), usually takes no longer than 5 minutes for boarding through jetbridge, as PAX are mostly routined fliers on business trips... Same game on AerLingus, just no C-class.

@JS

It's usually not the airlines to decide about that.. some indeed demand boarding by row, but all the random airlines (PGS, ORB, etc.) don't care. I instead demand it from boarding crews therefor, because that way I can get the plane out more likely being on time. Apparently I don't get a bonus for bringing out planes on time (less than 5 minutes after scheduled dep. (unlike AWS' generous 15") ), but since I love the job, I give my very best, to make everything run smooth :) .
Most of my colleagues don't care though. Understandable, given the wager :/

Apparently my personal on-time rating is just 50%, mostly due to slots though. As I learned, slots in real world (at least at DUS) are different to AWS... airlines don't have slots at all, they are only assigned during peak traffic hours, or times of single runway operations (happening often during rain or hot periods, as the secondary runway is only 2700m incl. overrun areas, 2200 in "official" length) to somehow guide the air-traffic, and keep them at their positions as long as possible, to save fuel.

But yet the main holiday season has not begun, so air traffic is by far not at maximum... 'only' 7 daily flights to ESB, IST/SAW, AYT, PMI and LPA each (totaling about 1000/day seat supply each, with mostly full a/c... AWS demand: <250 ;D ). During main holiday season (starting in 2-3 weeks) this will roughly double... congesting DUS nearly as much as LHR, just all in 738, not 744/777 :P

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:59:52 PM by Jona L. »

Offline chiveicrook

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 10:02:38 PM »
IMHO The problem is that airlines expect people to be reasonable. Last time I flew to US on Air France 747 people were asked to line up according to their seats (people from the back first, upper deck separately etc). Naturally practically every passenger disregarded that and instead of telling them to GTFO people from first rows were passed through and of course blocked the way. It took over 2 hours....

On the other hand intra-european flights quite often get boarded within 10 minutes... only to sit in plane for 30 minutes waiting to taxi ;)

Jona L.

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 10:09:29 PM »
just three words: "LOL.. no way".

Let me see where you can seat 180 pax to let's say an A320 in ~6 minutes from the time the boarding is started to the point the plane is ready to move actually (+ put their bag containers + random bulk bags in too), and using a regular airport's single jetway. ON A REGULAR BASIS (= to which you can base some real schedules).


(and not talking of any Ryanair-style cow slaughter boarding here...)

I neither spoke of getting aircraft able to move, nor did I speak of "from when boarding begins" (which is technically when I give a boarding OK, not when people start entering the a/c). Bags gotta be sorted between check in and aircraft, and most planes here don't have containers (actually only AFL and TK use them).

Aircraft is not ready to move even if all PAX are in, because I won't get the load&trimsheet before boarding has actually completed, and most pilots require a cross check of baggage numbers on that and bags actually loaded, and also take some time to enter all the data, before they give me my signed copy. Worse even, they often require a LMC correction for a few bags not loaded... as per our company's regulations we only have to do it with a +/-5 difference, and not for 2 PAX that won't have baggage at their destination.

Apparently neither does my company handle Finnair, nor do you guys send A320 down here (usually E90) so I won't be able to prove it to you :P .

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:13:42 PM by Jona L. »

Jona L.

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 10:11:15 PM »
IMHO The problem is that airlines expect people to be reasonable. Last time I flew to US on Air France 747 people were asked to line up according to their seats (people from the back first, upper deck separately etc). Naturally practically every passenger disregarded that and instead of telling them to GTFO people from first rows were passed through and of course blocked the way. It took over 2 hours....

On the other hand intra-european flights quite often get boarded within 10 minutes... only to sit in plane for 30 minutes waiting to taxi ;)

I only know 2 of my boarding crews to tell people to wait... all others don't get it going... usually resulting in the remark: "Boarding Crew unable to perform boarding by row" as a delay reason, if nothing else is slower...

Caesius

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 10:12:56 PM »
Vueling schedules 30 minutes turn around time for an A320 (on and off blocks). If the flight is heavily booked (+150 pax) a 5 minute delay is allowed for the handling agent.

Offline TK airlines

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 10:23:30 PM »
Generally they use the door in the front.  It would make sense to first seat people all the way in the back of the aircraft, so that the first group of people just walk through the aircraft and are not blocking anybody by trying to fit bags in the overhead bins etc.

But no, they first seat people in the front of the aircraft.  And each one person trying to figure out how to fit their bags in the bins blocks 100+ people behind them...
I think it depends on the airline/airport: Last summer (2011, flying OHY from AMS to ADB), the passengers at the back of the plane were boarded after the disabled people, followed by the ones sitting in front of the plane.
TK Regional

Offline Stormbringer748

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Re: Departure Punctuality question?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2019, 08:43:16 AM »
This is an old thread, but feel compelled to reply. Using 734's as my baseline, we could phyically turn around a 73 in 20 minutes, no aerobridge, unload/load cargo/luggage, service bio and water, catering and cabin cleaners, refuel, chock to chock, 20 minutes, 12 ground crew were turning around 7 an hour, do the maths : )

 

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