Bullying, blackmail etc. other people - how to avoid?

[Curse]

Hey guys,

I have a very special problem    Nope, not my fetish for free candy vans and tape, that's something I can handle 


The situation;
I would like to make some agreement with some other airline. I want slots and a route sharing agreement (75:25 for me) and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.

However, if I translate this (as far as it is possible to me) into English, it sounds like I want to rape his sisters and sell them to a cruel third world dictator. In return sami wouldn't be very amused with this and, as it happened to a friend, ban him for bullying and blackmail.

Now I'm curious: How can I avoid this? How would English natives formulate such things in this typical British/American always-extremely-friendly tone? And, mainly, how do you guys negotiate in here with things like this?

Or is this far beyond negotiation possibility and I should just do my thing?


Don't get me wrong, but I noticed several times just translating things doesn't prevent from making people angry or scare or insult them   


Thanks in advance 

[Sami]

Simple. Do not do such deals.

I am not very fond of such things....

[LemonButt]

In the real world, they call this collusion and price fixing.  What happens if airline #3 enters the market and starts flying your route?  What if they put 150% capacity on the route and take the lion's share of the demand?  Does that mean your invading the other guy's base?

[Curse]

Simple. Do not do such deals.

I am not very fond of such things....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQqiuynMwCQ

In the real world, they call this collusion and price fixing.  What happens if airline #3 enters the market and starts flying your route?  What if they put 150% capacity on the route and take the lion's share of the demand?  Does that mean your invading the other guy's base?

This will not happen in my scenario.



I'm disappointed. So many people that complain of rude German speech and behaviour and nobody who wants to help somebody who will increase his abilities. Ts Ts Ts... 

[LostInBKK]

But this sort of thing happens all the time in real life. Like BA and Virgin agreeing to put up the Fuel levy at the same time and if I remember correctly loads of airlines were done in a cargo system where they all basically charged the same price as each other.

[ukatlantic]

But this sort of thing happens all the time in real life. Like BA and Virgin agreeing to put up the Fuel levy at the same time and if I remember correctly loads of airlines were done in a cargo system where they all basically charged the same price as each other.

Your right but Virgin reported BA for price fixing and they got away scott free and BA ended up paying a % of their revenue in fines, same as for the cargo carriers the 'whistle blower' got away with it for reoprting the irregularities but the others (including Virgin if I rememebr correctly) got fined.

[ukatlantic]

Hey guys,

I have a very special problem.


The situation;
I would like to make some agreement with some other airline. I want slots and a route sharing agreement (75:25 for me) and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.


Thanks in advance  

Can't you be happy with your lot? Lets face it in most games you do very well but you always seem to want more and more and dislike it when people stand up to you and say no. As fo rthe route share agreement 75:25 in YOUR favour??? If I was the other airline I'd be telling you to go take a running jump off the nearest tall building  .

[Curse]

For sure I could be happy with what I have.

But at the end I play this game because it makes fun - for me. If others have fun, too, this is nice and I do a lot to help them to have this fun (you remember? My PM about your airline name?), but my main priority is to increase fun for me.

So now the game world (DotM) is open for how long? 8 ingame month? And all slots are gone. What do you think... how much fun do I have at the moment?


Now to my intention. There are only five good base possibilities in Japan. I would spare the best or second best if the airline based there give me something - so I think 75% market share on this one route is fair if the alternative is some crazy guy putting 70 aircraft on your base and fill up demand to much more routes.

I know this will sound very rude and aggressive to you, but as I said this is not my intention. It's just how things are.

However, sami made clear he don't want such negotiations in any way, so I open my base there and the case is done.


Btw, a small add;
I'd love to start out of a smaller airport and build up a small regional line, connection the country. But this is not possible at the moment at AWS, so I think it's normal to pursuit for more. Here are some impressions, even the described airline isn't very small at the end (to show much more components in the story I decided to increase the airline at the end)  https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30655.0.html

[ukatlantic]

For sure I could be happy with what I have.

But at the end I play this game because it makes fun - for me. If others have fun, too, this is nice and I do a lot to help them to have this fun (you remember? My PM about your airline name?), but my main priority is to increase fun for me.

So now the game world (DotM) is open for how long? 8 ingame month? And all slots are gone. What do you think... how much fun do I have at the moment?


Now to my intention. There are only five good base possibilities in Japan. I would spare the best or second best if the airline based there give me something - so I think 75% market share on this one route is fair if the alternative is some crazy guy putting 70 aircraft on your base and fill up demand to much more routes.

I know this will sound very rude and aggressive to you, but as I said this is not my intention. It's just how things are.

However, sami made clear he don't want such negotiations in any way, so I open my base there and the case is done.


Btw, a small add;
I'd love to start out of a smaller airport and build up a small regional line, connection the country. But this is not possible at the moment at AWS, so I think it's normal to pursuit for more. Here are some impressions, even the described airline isn't very small at the end (to show much more components in the story I decided to increase the airline at the end)  https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30655.0.html

I agree with your base possibilities in Japan, its very difficult and I would say its probably one of the very few places where you have to do what you have to do to expand.  As for slots SAMI has said that there was a reduction (60%) to normal but 12 months in they will increae to 100% and then at year 2 further increases will come in the attempt to keep places like Tokyo and HKG open.  You also mentioned regional airlines, I dont know how viable in this game it is, but... I have done it quite successfully in a newer Game World so much so I opened another base and was about to open my third when...I went and Closed down my airlie in error, but it is a doable thing although its slow and challenging, but hey I loved it and will be doing it again once V1.3 is out and running 

[filipebravo]

(...) typical British/American always-extremely-friendly tone? (...)

That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...

About your topic... Why negotiate a 75:25 scenario for you? If you say you can and will do this:

and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.

...then why don't you do it?? Why negotiate when it's more than clear for your opponent that you don't need his agreement to be successful?? That is the exact definition of bullying / blackmailing and that should not be tolerated, IMHO.

[Curse]

That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...

I mean people here in this forums and based on written English. I know in the real world with words things might be different.

About your topic... Why negotiate a 75:25 scenario for you? If you say you can and will do this:...then why don't you do it?? Why negotiate when it's more than clear for your opponent that you don't need his agreement to be successful?? That is the exact definition of bullying / blackmailing and that should not be tolerated, IMHO.

Again... just because I can doesn't mean I want and will do. If I can make an agreement that gives me slots and market share I can focus on other base airports. Also it's not my target to destroy others. So why not first make some negotiations? However, I'm tired of legitimate myself for things that are obvious.

[CXP211]

additionally correct me if i am wrong, but isnt there something in the rule about anti-compettitive behavior, where if YOU INTENTIONALLY PUSH OUT the compettition than well your in violation.   Personally my thoughts of you is you are definately bullying and extorting the other airline, and i hope you do flood the market, and loose lots of income doing it and in turn bankrupt your own company, so that 75/25 becomes 00/100 in the other airlines favor.

[Curse]

You are wrong. It's not against the rules if you don't use extremely low prices or use >200% supply etc.

Also I don't think your behaviour in wishing me and my airline everything bad while I just want to find out how to negotiate in a friendly and respectable way with others is very useful. Maybe it was not your intention, but I feel very offended by your post.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...

This is an absolute joke, I am British and lived in the UK for probably around 4 years, and in America for 13 Years and I can tell you that the we (the british) are not "naturally aggressive".  Perhaps people you dealt with were sick of immigrants coming into our country and taking decent jobs from decent people.

Extremely, EXTREMELY offensive to me ... sorry mate but thats just unreal

[CXP211]

you said " I just want to find out how to negotiate in a friendly and respectable way"  but earlier you said " I want slots and a route sharing agreement  and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots"  So you basically are saying "lets work to gether or i am going to crush his little airline and take the slots anyway"  but then are offended when we wish your airline fails , I DONT CARE, because you are threatening to do the same thing to some one else.  I am offended by your cocky attitude that you think if you dont get your way you can just take what you want regardless.

Also just because it is not low fares or over capacity doesnt mean you did not violate the rules.

These are excerpts from the rules in the manual:
" In such cases the owners of the existing airlines should keep in mind that coordinated attacks or other uncompetitive ways to use their power as a larger or more dominant airline may be disallowed."  You are saying you will use your power and influence to "crush his little airline and take the slots"    There is a violation

also deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline.
Well you are TARGETING him if you plan to "crush his little airline"   

So yes by you saying you want to shut down some one elses airline if he doesnt do what you want,  I wish that if you attemp it that you will fail miserably as will your airline.

Sami am i wrong?

[Jona L.]

Man calm down!!

You are not even a month into the game and already don't make friends but mess around with long term players. As soon as you get into real games, not such super-dooper protected BW games you will sonly notice how the rabbit is running. Airline market is a tough business, and AWS is still heavily protecting... e.g. would LH and BA target all routes between their hubs...

I nearly got into deep trouble (a ban) for exactly this issue as a pm. The whole point behind this is to allow some harsh negotiating without the danger of being banned for this stuff.

Currenly at a mobile device, otherwise would have said more...

Jona L.

[GEnx]

Jona, it doesn't matter how long CXP has been registered because he's plainly right. The fact of the matter is that Sebastian asks for a non-rude message which would prevent you from being banned, which is frankly not possible as constructively proven by this same guy.

You guys fail to understand that this game is not about crushing others and be the sole victor of everything, even as small as individual routes. 99% of those who register here, sign up with the intent to live the dream of finally running their own airline. In contrast from what you believe, this does not per definition include being the biggest, most dominant airline in the game world. It almost seems like you don't enjoy running the actual airline anymore, since you're so determined to crush and beat others that you engage in practices such as "leave the route or I'll unleash my endless powers", which is, in my view, the bottom line here.

[lilius]

Im going to jump in with CXP here. If we could just do extorsion on each other we wouldnt even need to play in the end. The bigger airlines would always have the upperhand anyway. The only way to give big airlines a match ( and make the game more interesting ) is to keep on moving into the bases.

[CXP211]

Jona, It doesnt matter how long i have been playing, I paid for my credits just like every one else.  And there are rules, just because some one is bigger and been here longer doesnt mean they should be allowed to break them.  Also I am the little guy, Why should my enjoyment be ruined because some one doesnt get his way and throws a tantrum intended to "Crush" my airline, and by crush that means Intentionally put my airline out of business, which in and of is self is a violation of the rules, which state "All airlines in AirwaySim must act in a proper and "businesslike" manner" and  coordinated attacks or other uncompetitive ways to use their power as a larger or more dominant airline may be disallowed., not to mention "targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline."  I am not here to make friends I have plenty thanks,  I am here to enjoy the sim.  and the reason i have an issue, is next time I could be the little guy who the poster is trying to "crush and take all the slots" from.

[CXP211]

by the way i have been in the airline industry for 10 years, I know there are not many protections in the realworld, but if this was the real world, how many of you would in reality have the airlines that you have now, how many of those airlines would still be in existance.  Also in the real world, you dont have a little screen that tells you the daily ammount of Pax that want to fly a route in seconds.  Fact is this is NOT the real world, and there are restrictions in place to keep it enjoyable for all.