Aircraft fleet size classes

[freshmore]

if thats true i'll config my 767's i will order to be medium aircraft

[Sami]

So the category will be calculated individually for each player's fleet?!

Umm.. What? No.

Average from all available models in that fleet group, their max capacity.  Or in other words = You do not need to know even, just told the basis for that just for FYI.

[gandalfi]

So the category will be calculated individually for each player's fleet?!
I do not get that right I think,
so if I have a fleet of lets say CONCs, which are usually at 108 pax, but have max at 128, and I reconfigure them to 100 HD business seats (my standard for CONC), will they than be medium or large ones?!

thanks for explaining that to me!

have a nice evening (locally it is 23:15 for me)

Of course its by the max pax. The salaries, management costs and maintainance costs don't change when you change configurations

EDIT: Sami was quicker

[Sami]

Changes are now live.

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,14383.msg73290.html#msg73290

[Branmuffin]

Thank you sami! You're the best!

[FF1982]

Hmm just posted a new topic on this, whoops should have looked first. Just want to say I really disagree with the aircraft included in the new classifications A 34 seat saab should not be a medium sized aircraft, and likewise a 120 seat 737 is not a large aircraft, it is a medium sized aircraft, in my opinion I think it should be as follows. 

1 - 50 seats = Small
50-180 seats = Medium
181-300 seats = Large
301 + seats = xtra large

[Riger]

You can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please all the people all if the time!!

Maybe it should simply be a factor of how many seats your aircraft can take and make a direct calculation on a per seat basis, so that if the rate is $10 per seat then an aircraft that could be configured with a max of 50 seats costs $50/week no matter how many seats are actually in the aircraft and an aircraft that could carry a max seats of 260 would cost $2600/week and so forth.

This could defuse all the arguments about what category an aircraft goes into.

Best Regards

Richard

[FF1982]

I realise that everybody has different opinions and those opinions will be bias towards their current operations, but the current classification is just plain wrong in its current form. I say put it to a vote for each category, then its a fair representation of everyone's opinion.

[Sami]

All medium/large lets such as DC-9, 737 and A320 are and will be classified as large due to salaries..

(or I mean that is purely intentional and will not be changed)

[FF1982]

Then why even bother with the small category if an aircraft with only 34 seats is medium, how many airlines are messing around with aircraft of less than 20 seats anyway, I bet you could count them on one hand. you may as well have just left it the way it was, there was no issue with just the three categories in the first place. Maybe somewhere down the line there could be a proper recruitment model set up, so you can choose what to pay staff, however there is a market rate and if you pay less then you will find it hard to recruit required numbers, and staff will leave to join better paying airlines, this would be a fantastic addition to the game and would be far more realistic than the current set up.

[Sigma]

Hmm just posted a new topic on this, whoops should have looked first. Just want to say I really disagree with the aircraft included in the new classifications A 34 seat saab should not be a medium sized aircraft, and likewise a 120 seat 737 is not a large aircraft, it is a medium sized aircraft, in my opinion I think it should be as follows. 

1 - 50 seats = Small
50-180 seats = Medium
181-300 seats = Large
301 + seats = xtra large

You're getting too hung up on the names of the classes.  No, the 737 is not what most people think of as being as "Large" plane.  But, for the purposes of pay scale, it is indeed on the higher-end of pilot pay scale in general; and generalizations are, at this time, all that we can go with.  Instead of thinking of the "Small"/"Medium"/etc as referring to the plane, think of it as simply referring to their paycheck instead.  Your Saab pilots get a "Medium Paycheck", and your 737 pilots get a "Large Paycheck".

The entire point of the change was to create greater granularity on the lower-end of the scale so that very small and regional operations would be possible within the game (though this is just the first step of that plan).

Your proposed setup, while it conveniently places your Saabs in "small", also puts a good 80% of the planes in the world in the lower 2 categories as the 737 and A320 in particular fit very comfortably within the "Medium" range.  That defeats the entire point of the change.

There are always going to be planes that sit on the cusp of the pay scales.  Your Saabs are one such plane, as you're just 3 seats shy of falling into the lower category.  Yes, it sucks.  But it introduces a small amount of strategy in the future choice of aircraft.  And, for current games, the pay difference is hardly enough to warrant complaining about.  And, in fact, compared to the beginning of the game, before the first change was made, your pay for the Saab pilots is still lower now than it would have been prior to any changes Sami made and all pilots were paid the same.

[Sigma]

Then why even bother with the small category if an aircraft with only 34 seats is medium, how many airlines are messing around with aircraft of less than 20 seats anyway, I bet you could count them on one hand. you may as well have just left it the way it was, there was no issue with just the three categories in the first place.

That's the entire point!

The reason no one messes with little planes is because it's not economical in the game to do so.  Under earlier models where pilots were all paid the same no matter if they flew a Cessna or an A380, the salaries alone would cost you more to fly out and pick up 30 people than the ticket sales.

These changes are the first of many planned changes to make those operations economically viable within the game.

The addition of the 4th category was necessary because there was still insufficient granularity within the model as was discussed earlier in this thread.

[FF1982]

Sigma , i really could not care less about whether my Saab pilots get paid more or Less, its only six aircraft from a fleet of 90 I just dont see the point in having four categories where the small category is there for no reason. what was wrong with the 3 category set up.

[FF1982]

And just for the record I thought the change was to make Dash sized aircraft and lower more viable to operate not just Caravans and PA-42's

[Sami]

I can rename them as very small, small, medium, large if that is your whole point in this, or did I misunderstand?  As the names of the classes are totally irrelevant anyway. Just think of them as classes "1-2-3-4", from smallest to largest.


The whole point of adding the 4th class is to further separate the medium-sized planes like Saab 340 (or Dash8) and B737 more apart, as previously they were in the same group. And regional prop pilots are most certainly not paid the same as mainline jet pilots, and the maintenance times are not the same.

[Powi]

Current classification is very good.

Just move Boeing 717 Large -> Medium

(There are aircraft with more PAX and greater MTOW in medium class and all similar aircraft are medium)


edit: Discussed already in IRC

[Jona L.]

I do not actually know, but it seems, that I am the only operator of CONC anyway, but..... why the heck is that put into "very large"?!?!?!? I don not see the poinp... It has even much less PAX than an 737 (even the -100 version), and a third pilot also! So maybe put it to large, you are killing me with the maint. cost anyway, but now also with the salaries!

Doh' I cannot let it run very good with this size level!

anyway... I got to accept what Mr. Sami programs in here!

cu guys

[freshmore]

concorde pilots are the best in the business, they fly 747's and other huge intercontinental jets before flying concorde, so they get paid the going rate for intercontinental jets not 737's as they are the creme de la creme of pilots of that airline. also going down the payroll ladder for a harder jet to fly from a 747 for example is stupid.

[kevinmh]

Maybe "large aircraft" can be further broken down to 2 classes, so that "large aircrafts" with 120 seats or less (initial suggestion, welcome to give better suggestion) can be distinguished from other larger "large aircrafts".

The classes should be renamed as follow:

• Small -> Very Small
• Medium -> Small
• Large (=<120 seats) -> Medium
• Large (>120 seats) -> Large
• Very Large -> Very Large

[Branmuffin]

concorde pilots are the best in the business, they fly 747's and other huge intercontinental jets before flying concorde, so they get paid the going rate for intercontinental jets not 737's as they are the creme de la creme of pilots of that airline. also going down the payroll ladder for a harder jet to fly from a 747 for example is stupid.

x2