TIP : Do not join a game on day 1

[stevecree]

One airline just BK'd and with the increased money you get by not joining on day 1 he now has 4 x MD80's and 84 slots within 5 minutes of restarting !!!

So next game you'd be far better off joining at 00:01 on day 2 !  It has taken other airlines since the start of the game to achieve what this guy has in minutes.

[Curse]

Yeah, there really should be a trigger to enable the system for late starters not on day 2 but after 18 or 24 month. I hope sami sees this and changes it for the running games and the future.

[LemonButt]

I'm not in the game world not sure how much this would cost, but do you think the guy has any cash reserves left?  Also, I would argue that starting the game world on day 2 should provide significantly more cash than day 1 because the mere act of basing at an airport on day 1 deters competition.  For example, if 5 players based at JFK on day 1, then player #1 based at JFK with default money knowing with zero competition, player #2 knew they were getting default money and decided to open up on top of them with only one competitor, etc.

It only makes sense to be player #6 in the airport if there is financial incentive, which there now is, and therefore you incentive competition.  Odds are that if a player is offered the default startup capital then there would never be a player #6 as they would seek out less competitive airports.  It might sound counter-intuitive, but when you look at it as a business decision with tradeoffs then IMO it becomes justified that player #6 starting on day 2 gets more money to create competition in an already crowded airport.

[Curse]

That does not make sense.

It encourages players to restart soon, taking advantage with "free money" over people who already played for a bit. Crowded airports also already have enough competition, too much to be accurate.



There is no sense to start on day 1 when you could join on day 4 (real time) and be on top with the _best_ players, far above the huge mass that is average or below average.

[LemonButt]

Crowded airports also already have enough competition, too much to be accurate.

This is the crux of why it doesn't make sense to you--there is no such thing as enough or too much competition.

[AUpilot77]

Especially since it takes a few game days (sometimes weeks) to start making a profit off of your new flights.  Now these new airlines starting up have a higher CV instantly when restarting and there are still hundreds (if not thousands) of aircraft on the used market.  I understand trying to make things easier on the newer guys but this is hurting the people that start from the beginning.

[Steve]

What "free money"? I'm  not in the GW but I am pretty sure you don't get 2X or 3X the of day 1 starting money on day 2 or day 3. Look at the manual.

[medium, effective immediately] * Starting capital for new airlines is now more dynamic.

It already previously has been tied to the inflation and also to the game progress. Meaning that the starting capital has increased over time and the later you join, the more money you get proportionally.

This calculation has been now changed further to support new players. The effect of game's progress vs. start money is higher than before, and it takes also now into account the size of airport you choose as your HQ airport.

Practical example: in 1952 in Game World #4 the start up money was $1 200 000. In 1972 the player joining would have $1 970 000 due inflation and game progress (old calculation). With this change however the player will get this money if he joins at the smallest possible airport (size class 1). If he picks a larger airport the sum is higher, in this case in class 5 airport it would be $5 000 000. Or if he joins in year 2000 (= 50 years into the game) and picks a class 5 airport the starting money is $31 000 000 (without this change it would have been about $11mil).

This additional calculation is fully active after 180 days into a new game world (rises gradually).

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg308666.html#new

[LemonButt]

This calculation has been now changed further to support new players. The effect of game's progress vs. start money is higher than before, and it takes also now into account the size of airport you choose as your HQ airport.

I think the situation at hand is the size of airport.  Going back to my JFK example, if you are player #6 you'll get a bigger boost than if you are player #3.  Crowded airports = more money.

[Curse]

This would lead to a constant cycle of restarts because player 3 will be player 7, player 4 will be player 8, etc. etc. etc.

Again: What you said doesn't make sense.



And of course there is "too much" competition: An airport has a limited amount of capacity and when someone is forced to BK he should not get a second, third, fourth or whatever chance to be better now - with an endless supply of free money.



@ Steve

I have confirmation from sami via PM it is effective as soon as the clock ticks. And I don't know the exact amount of money, but it's plentiful - two ingame weeks after start a restarted airline had the same amount of airline value I had and was instantly able to order 3x DC-10-30, get 12x EGLL Slots and 8x KATL Slots plus the 20x KLAX slots. That was even more I was able to spend with my starting cash PLUS the profit I made in two weeks... and it was plenty profit.

[stevecree]

All that will do is have people join day 2 at 00:01 and gain an advantage over someone that opened literally 2 game minutes previously. It's just daft !

I don't mind assisting new airlines, but right now every airline in GW3 is new...even the ones that started day 1 relatively speaking.

Such assistance should not kick in for maybe 12 months, at which time I'd agree airlines are a little more established.

[LemonButt]

This would lead to a constant cycle of restarts because player 3 will be player 7, player 4 will be player 8, etc. etc. etc.

I'm talking about the number of active airlines based at the airport, not number of airlines ever.  And yes, it does make sense and no there is no such thing as too much competition.  Sure there are constraints, but they create barriers to entry versus encouraging competition.  LHR for example suffers from a lack of competition due to the slot situation, which is why the top airlines in profit are always at LHR--lack of competition. 

There is no endless supply of free money.  I restarted in GW2 after the changes were made and instead of getting $7.5 million I got $21 million when I started at a congested airport (ORD).

Additionally, with the new basing system a player is not required to saturate their HQ before opening a new base, so if player #6 opened up at JFK and only schedules 20 aircraft before moving on to another base, they can do so.

[Curse]

You simply don't get how the current system favors exploiting and gives players starting on day 1 a noticable disadvantage. That's ok.

[stevecree]

Fully agree Curse, I cant see one single valid reason above that justifies airlines opened 1 day apart should have any difference in initial finance.

[LemonButt]

Fully agree Curse, I cant see one single valid reason above that justifies airlines opened 1 day apart should have any difference in initial finance.

The mere act of basing at an airport is the reason why.  Let's assume SAC based at JFK.  The cost to compete in JFK when there are zero existing competitors is X.  Then let's assume Curse wanted to base at JFK.  The cost to compete in JFK is something greater than X because he will have 1 (known) competitor.  Despite this fact, he decides to base at JFK with X dollars.  We can disagree as to how much the additional cash would/should be, but the fact is there is value created when joining early because the mere act of basing at an airport deters competition.

So the question is how much extra cash should they get?  I don't know the exact answer, but I can tell you the amount is greater than zero.  As far as putting a 12 month delay on increasing the cash, you are essentially giving players who started one day one a 12 month moratorium on new competition.  The problem isn't AWS has too much competition, but not enough.

If you invert the problem, how do you create competition when 5 players are already based at an airport?  If you give a player X amount of cash, they have the choice of competing against 5 players with X dollars or opening up in an empty airport with X dollars.  Most players will take the beaten path and avoid competition versus embracing it (which is why there isn't enough competition in AWS).  However, if you offer a player X++ dollars to compete instead, you can start comparing apples to apples and the opportunity cost approaches zero.

Even then, in the end this is a business simulation and business isn't fair.  Obviously the rules/structure are in place to make it as even a playing field as possible, but IRL there will always be competitors that have way more resources than you.  I started and currently operate an online business with my own capital.  I compete against publicly held companies worth billions that had a 20 year headstart on me.  Yet, with my thousands of dollars of capital I'm able to compete effectively and profit in spite of these companies with seemingly infinite resources.

IMO there isn't enough incentive for players to start late and compete against existing airlines, which is why gameworlds always end up less than half full.  If the goal is to compete and "win" then there should be incentive (more than there is now) to encourage competition whereas if your goal is to simply "win" without competing, what's the point of even playing the game?

[stevecree]

Again all you say is fine mid term...day 2, week 2, month 2 is just not needed...the rule is to help new airlines, but I'll say again ALL airlines are new at that point. Many many people will just join day 2 00:01 and gain an advantage over airlines created minutes before....its just plane silly and those that know will just open day 2. It will be exploited and have to be changed.

[Sami]

Many many people will just join day 2 00:01 and gain an advantage over airlines created minutes before....its just plane silly and those that know will just open day 2.

A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see. On day 1, this new game (y/1995) the start cash was 8 000 000 USD for a class 5 airport. On day 2 it was 8 049 000 USD. So, if you want that extra $49k, go ahead and join a day later.

Like announced, the money increases gradually as the game time goes on (both inflation and the game specific money increase function; of course in short term inflation has no effect, but in long term it's very noticeable). It would be of course nonsense to give an immediate big bump on the money after the first 24 hours, even I am not that silly.... (= a smooth and linear increase that is)


(Not very smart to spread these opinions as hard facts.)

[Curse]

50k for just one day is a nice benefit. Is it 50k per day?

How about disabling this feature for the first 12 month or so (like stated in the manual/feature update forums)?



In KLAX somebody restarted, using A320-200. He's bashing the guy with the old MD-80s right now who's around since the gameworld started. Not too far in the future this guy is going to BK. He then probably restarts and pushes the A320-200 guy out of the game. That's just a ridiculous cycle of consumption, more fitting into a WWI or WWII game than in a business simulation.

[Sami]

50k for just one day is a nice benefit. Is it 50k per day?

No. It is calculated based on the initial cash, game year, game progress etc, and your base size too (most importantly). Of course not any fixed amount, as that would make absolutely no sense either.

[Infinity]

A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that any progress for the first weeks/months can be made void by a competitor bankrupting and restarting. Early mistakes are not exactly encouraged by that, but certainly not penalized. Likewise, early success yields no gains if a competitor uses this 'feature'. This is not very motivating.
At least a dampening the effect would be good.

[LemonButt]

Be that as it may, the fact remains that any progress for the first weeks/months can be made void by a competitor bankrupting and restarting. Early mistakes are not exactly encouraged by that, but certainly not penalized. Likewise, early success yields no gains if a competitor uses this 'feature'. This is not very motivating.
At least a dampening the effect would be good.

The point of increasing start money later in the game is that you end up with the same purchasing power.  Slots on day 1 might cost $500k whereas several years in they will cost you $5 million.  There is no inherent advantage gained by starting late as the startup money will still buy the same number of slots, aircraft, etc.