Collusion in The Modern Times

[AngryOpossum]

I am the CEO of Manchestair in The Modern Times, with bases in MAN, LGW, DUS, CDG, BHX, and GLA. I was, until recently, in a pretty intense battle with Concept Bright, an Elite Alliance Member with bases in BHX, GLA, and (until recently) LGW. Concept Bright left Elite Alliance just before the following activities happened.

Concept Bright was struggling, posting a $630M operating loss in Q1 2011. This largely stemmed from flying five fleets. Recently, he has sold numerous A321-300s at large losses to a (former) alliance member, Champagne de l'Air, who already shared two bases with me (MAN and CDG). An example is A321 #2133 - acquired by Concept Bright for $115M on 17-Nov-2009 and sold to Champagne de l'Air on 22-May-2011 for $51.8M on 22-May-2011, representing a roughly $60M transfer in value from Concept Bright to Champagne de l'Air. Other A321 serial numbers include #2154, #4680, #4689, #4807, #4815, #4870, #4881, #4893, #4898, #4906, #4909, and #4917. Together, this is a transfer of approximately $715M from Concept Bright to Champagne de l'Air. After this transfer, Concept Bright closed his base at LGW, and Champagne de l'Air moved into LGW shortly thereafter.

Concept Bright also sold or leased a number of 777 Freighters to JetGO (an Elite member), such as #27691, #27638, #27659, #23921, #27560, #27040, #26427, #27401, #27079, #27433, #27508, #26515, and #26449. Most of these are leased and therefore the price is unavailable, but the ones that sold are roughly at minimum price; for example #27560 was sold for $117.2M on 31-May-2011. In contrast, Concept Bright - while still trying to stay alive - sold 777 #27469 to Jumbo Shrimp World (also an Elite member) on 26-Apr-2010 for $205M.

After receiving these aircraft, JetGO opened a base in BHX. This would not have been possible had Concept Bright remained in Elite Alliance, as they could not both be in the base otherwise. JetGO has started flying 777 Freighters out of BHX, which would compete both with my cargo operations in MAN and BHX, those of my alliance mate in LHR, as well as another airline already in BHX. It would also - in theory - compete with Concept Bright's own cargo operations.

However, there is clearly co-ordination happening here. Many of JetGO's routes are identical to those of Concept Bright. I've attached a screenshot as an example - BHX-BWI. Concept Bright is flying this route with a freighter on 1--4--7, and JetGO is flying the route with a freighter on -23----. Thus, there is no competition on this route between the Concept Bright and JetGO, but competition is maintained against other airlines. I do not fly this route directly, but I compete with this route via city-based demand from my cargo base at MAN, to say nothing of the local airline at BHX (Western Gateway Airlines) who is flying this route directly. There are more examples, but I won't elaborate on them here. Presumably this is an effort to maintain actual demand levels while slowly transferring supply from one airline to another. Again, this would not be possible if Concept Bright had stayed in Elite Alliance, but I think it's pretty clear that coordination is happening.

Is this how the game works? If you defeat someone, their carcasses are eaten - not by creditors - but by another airline who will then be stronger to compete with you? By leaving an alliance in name, you can then share bases and collude on routes to team up on other airlines? The rules clearly say, "any deliberate attacks towards other airlines / users are not allowed. The competition rules about alliances (routes, aircraft sales etc.) are also in force if two (or more) non-alliance airlines decide to co-operate together." To me, this is a clear-cut case of breaking a competition rule about alliances (sharing a base) enabled by one airline leaving the alliance - in name only, of course.

[schlaf]

Report privately to Sami if you suspect something breaks any rules..

[DanDan]

I am the CEO of Manchestair in The Modern Times, with bases in MAN, LGW, DUS, CDG, BHX, and GLA. I was, until recently, in a pretty intense battle with Concept Bright, an Elite Alliance Member with bases in BHX, GLA, and (until recently) LGW. Concept Bright left Elite Alliance just before the following activities happened.

Concept Bright was struggling, posting a $630M operating loss in Q1 2011. This largely stemmed from flying five fleets. Recently, he has sold numerous A321-300s at large losses to a (former) alliance member, Champagne de l'Air, who already shared two bases with me (MAN and CDG). An example is A321 #2133 - acquired by Concept Bright for $115M on 17-Nov-2009 and sold to Champagne de l'Air on 22-May-2011 for $51.8M on 22-May-2011, representing a roughly $60M transfer in value from Concept Bright to Champagne de l'Air. Other A321 serial numbers include #2154, #4680, #4689, #4807, #4815, #4870, #4881, #4893, #4898, #4906, #4909, and #4917. Together, this is a transfer of approximately $715M from Concept Bright to Champagne de l'Air. After this transfer, Concept Bright closed his base at LGW, and Champagne de l'Air moved into LGW shortly thereafter.

Concept Bright also sold or leased a number of 777 Freighters to JetGO (an Elite member), such as #27691, #27638, #27659, #23921, #27560, #27040, #26427, #27401, #27079, #27433, #27508, #26515, and #26449. Most of these are leased and therefore the price is unavailable, but the ones that sold are roughly at minimum price; for example #27560 was sold for $117.2M on 31-May-2011. In contrast, Concept Bright - while still trying to stay alive - sold 777 #27469 to Jumbo Shrimp World (also an Elite member) on 26-Apr-2010 for $205M.

After receiving these aircraft, JetGO opened a base in BHX. This would not have been possible had Concept Bright remained in Elite Alliance, as they could not both be in the base otherwise. JetGO has started flying 777 Freighters out of BHX, which would compete both with my cargo operations in MAN and BHX, those of my alliance mate in LHR, as well as another airline already in BHX. It would also - in theory - compete with Concept Bright's own cargo operations.

However, there is clearly co-ordination happening here. Many of JetGO's routes are identical to those of Concept Bright. I've attached a screenshot as an example - BHX-BWI. Concept Bright is flying this route with a freighter on 1--4--7, and JetGO is flying the route with a freighter on -23----. Thus, there is no competition on this route between the Concept Bright and JetGO, but competition is maintained against other airlines. I do not fly this route directly, but I compete with this route via city-based demand from my cargo base at MAN, to say nothing of the local airline at BHX (Western Gateway Airlines) who is flying this route directly. There are more examples, but I won't elaborate on them here. Presumably this is an effort to maintain actual demand levels while slowly transferring supply from one airline to another. Again, this would not be possible if Concept Bright had stayed in Elite Alliance, but I think it's pretty clear that coordination is happening.

Is this how the game works? If you defeat someone, their carcasses are eaten - not by creditors - but by another airline who will then be stronger to compete with you? By leaving an alliance in name, you can then share bases and collude on routes to team up on other airlines? The rules clearly say, "any deliberate attacks towards other airlines / users are not allowed. The competition rules about alliances (routes, aircraft sales etc.) are also in force if two (or more) non-alliance airlines decide to co-operate together." To me, this is a clear-cut case of breaking a competition rule about alliances (sharing a base) enabled by one airline leaving the alliance - in name only, of course.

big news in AWS - planes are being sold at (un)favourable rates!

in the real world, it would be called a subsidy in the best and (bankrupcy) fraud in the worst case. in AWS there are no banks or shareholders upset if a CEO spends money or assets carelessly. as long as the planes are used, the administration usually considers it alright to proceed that way - since there is no single "market price" one has to sell at, it seems that airlines are using tolerances set by the administration.

what sounds more un-rule-ful is a possible "coordinated slot transfer", which may be an AWS crime, if (imho!) 1) coordination can be proved and 2) the airport has been scarce in slots in the first place (maybe make screenshots of the closing/opening of bases and slot data for that purpose).

[Amelie090904]

I honestly don't understand what all this is about? Concept Bright miscalculated his strategy, tried to adapt (ending up in 5 fleets) and simply cannot maintain his airline. He will probably bankrupt anytime soon. Before that happens, he will obviously hand over any useful planes to alliance members as the used market is still pretty dry. Since he will most likely bankrupt soon, he left the alliance so that other members get the chance to set up new bases at his (former) airports so the alliance as such is not losing any (big) bases. What exactly is the problem here?

Money transfers would be multiple sales back and forth in an attempt to resuce an airline. Not happening here. Coordinated attack? I'd say simple expansion into new bases.

[AngryOpossum]

I honestly don't understand what all this is about? Concept Bright miscalculated his strategy, tried to adapt (ending up in 5 fleets) and simply cannot maintain his airline. He will probably bankrupt anytime soon. Before that happens, he will obviously hand over any useful planes to alliance members as the used market is still pretty dry. Since he will most likely bankrupt soon, he left the alliance so that other members get the chance to set up new bases at his (former) airports so the alliance as such is not losing any (big) bases. What exactly is the problem here?

Money transfers would be multiple sales back and forth in an attempt to resuce an airline. Not happening here. Coordinated attack? I'd say simple expansion into new bases.

He left the alliance to deliberately circumvent a rule (one alliance can't have two airlines in the same airport).

[Amelie090904]

He left the alliance to deliberately circumvent a rule (one alliance can't have two airlines in the same airport).

This is technically impossible since he is not a member of the alliance anymore. Also, it is just temporary while he sells the planes he still has.

[swiftus27]

What happened here that is of great concern?

[AngryOpossum]

This is technically impossible since he is not a member of the alliance anymore. Also, it is just temporary while he sells the planes he still has.

Let me spell it out for you. Here are two quotes from the rules:

"The competition rules about alliances (routes, aircraft sales etc.) are also in force if two (or more) non-alliance airlines decide to co-operate together."

"Two airlines of the same alliance may not be based at the same airport (HQ or additional bases)."

JetGO and Concept Bright are clearly coordinating. They're also based at the same airport, which is in violation of the "competition rules about alliances". Pretty clear. Plus, it's a formality that Concept Bright and JetGO aren't in the same alliance. The former clearly left the alliance to allow them to base at the same airport.

[Amelie090904]

I don't see any violation of the rules in this context.

Concept Bright will bankrupt soon and be gone. Easy as that. He is just selling some planes in the meanwhile to alliance members who are preparing to take over the bases. Nothing wrong with that especially since Concept Bright is pretty dead already.

[SP7]

Early in this game world a prominent Phoenix alliance was struggling and flying 5 fleets. Within Phoenix alliance another prominent alliance member very obviously took steps to bankrupt his own airline. In that process he took out massive loans and bought owned aircraft to lease to alliance members, presumably at some steep discounts. Airline 2 closed up shop as soon as their ready cash ran out.


Where was this forum post when that was happening? Should we go back and retroactively BK the airline that massively benefitted?

[tungstennedge]

You know, this post is filled with examples of how MT having unlimited OOB has actually stirred up competition. Tons of great players have gone BK, or are currently struggling.

[Amelie090904]

If "it's just a fomality" that Concept Bright is not in our alliance anymore, it's also "just a formality" that he is basically bankrupt already.

@tungsten: I don't think it's due to OOB. Both Maddix and Unsaid (Concept Bright) went more than 3 fleets. Combined with high-ish fuel it's just deadly. I don't think it has too much to do with OOB (which makes it more interesting nonetheless).

[Mr.HP]

So, just to confirm, buying A/C at 100M and later sell for 50M is no problem here?

I was selling brand new A/Cs to alliance mate at book value, but I think I can sell them at loss

Need sami to confirm this case

[Pup]

Regarding the 777F's - almost every single one was listed at around 100-115m. So I guess that's minimum price.

That said, he purchased them for far, far less... They're converted 772's

Book value would have been lower.

5 examples at random:

#27079
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($53 457 117)

#26449
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($60 544 000)

#27040
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($55 588 300)

#27508
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200ER to Boeing 777 Freighter
17-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($96 428 109)

#27560
31-May-2011   Bought by JetGO ($117 240 000)
19-Sep-2010   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
24-Aug-2010   Bought by Concept Bright ($55 091 060)

[Pup]

Let me spell it out for you. Here are two quotes from the rules:

"The competition rules about alliances (routes, aircraft sales etc.) are also in force if two (or more) non-alliance airlines decide to co-operate together."

"Two airlines of the same alliance may not be based at the same airport (HQ or additional bases)."

JetGO and Concept Bright are clearly coordinating. They're also based at the same airport, which is in violation of the "competition rules about alliances". Pretty clear. Plus, it's a formality that Concept Bright and JetGO aren't in the same alliance. The former clearly left the alliance to allow them to base at the same airport.

No, just no. Here is a quote from our alliance forum post we use to coord base openings:

with Concept Bright bankrupting, and not indicating he will restart. I'll throw my hat in the ring for Birmingham.

FlyEurope is starting to look shaky too, btw.

I've stopped actively trying to down BeeAir, which was part of the plan following to Hamburg. He's from Ukraine, so doesn't feel right doing that.

Does that suggest any collusion? He was gone from the alliance before I even knew about his struggles!

[Pup]

You know, this post is filled with examples of how MT having unlimited OOB has actually stirred up competition. Tons of great players have gone BK, or are currently struggling.

You went through your Buz phase this MT  , but now you're starting to destroy me... I like this GW even if it's my first bankruptcy

[Pup]

However, there is clearly co-ordination happening here. Many of JetGO's routes are identical to those of Concept Bright. I've attached a screenshot as an example - BHX-BWI. Concept Bright is flying this route with a freighter on 1--4--7, and JetGO is flying the route with a freighter on -23----. Thus, there is no competition on this route between the Concept Bright and JetGO, but competition is maintained against other airlines. I do not fly this route directly, but I compete with this route via city-based demand from my cargo base at MAN, to say nothing of the local airline at BHX (Western Gateway Airlines) who is flying this route directly. There are more examples, but I won't elaborate on them here. Presumably this is an effort to maintain actual demand levels while slowly transferring supply from one airline to another. Again, this would not be possible if Concept Bright had stayed in Elite Alliance, but I think it's pretty clear that coordination is happening.

Missed this part.. I went down the list of largest cargo airports. Opened a 7 day schedule and assigned them. Then setup 4x 7 day schedules with two planes on each to build RI cheap.

You've conveniently selected one example in an attempt to prove an empty point. I've opened 29 routes... 24 compete with our bankrupting friend, 5 do not by chance... mass collusion? negative.

[swiftus27]

Regarding the 777F's - almost every single one was listed at around 100-115m. So I guess that's minimum price.

That said, he purchased them for far, far less... They're converted 772's

Book value would have been lower.

5 examples at random:

#27079
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($53 457 117)

#26449
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($60 544 000)

#27040
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
05-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($55 588 300)

#27508
27-May-2011   Leased by JetGO
05-Dec-2009   Converted from Boeing 777-200ER to Boeing 777 Freighter
17-Nov-2009   Bought by Concept Bright ($96 428 109)

#27560
31-May-2011   Bought by JetGO ($117 240 000)
19-Sep-2010   Converted from Boeing 777-200 to Boeing 777 Freighter
24-Aug-2010   Bought by Concept Bright ($55 091 060)

Maybe assume that the plane was purchased with a launch discount with 100% down payment?   

[tungstennedge]

You went through your Buz phase this MT  , but now you're starting to destroy me... I like this GW even if it's my first bankruptcy

Yeah restarting was tough. Anyhow I don't think I'm destroying you, we both just mutually exists with lacklustre margins. So far in this world, only the best run companies have both a high margin and a high revenue, we are doing good to exist in this capacity.

[Meddix]

@tungsten: I don't think it's due to OOB. Both Maddix and Unsaid (Concept Bright) went more than 3 fleets. Combined with high-ish fuel it's just deadly. I don't think it has too much to do with OOB (which makes it more interesting nonetheless).

Just to be clear I didnt use 3 fleet, was profitable but simply bk'd because I did not like the dynamics of this game world.
If I would have survived the complete high fuel price period I dont know.

But now on topic.

I think it's absolutely clear that this discussion will never stop unless this type of sales is banned completely
In my opinion this kind of transactions do not reflect the normal reality. Every airline would like to have the very best price for the plane he puts on sale

So to stop this kind of discussions once and for all I think the only way to do it is to change the dynamics of the UM competely
And stop with private listing

All planes should be offered on the open UM.
Instead of waiting 14 gamedays for you plane, you have 14 gamedays to offer your best price for a plane
At game start you can only make 3 offers. Unless your price is beaten. In that case you can make a new offer for the same plane or another
If you have the best price after 14 gamedays you can use the plane immediately