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Author Topic: Staffing  (Read 1539 times)

Offline Maxair

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Staffing
« on: February 16, 2020, 10:17:44 PM »
I just straight swapped a 727-100F for a 727-200F and apparently i need 10 more pilots now to fly the same schedule. Can someone explain this to me?

Offline Talentz

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2020, 10:21:40 PM »
Higher MTOW equals more pilots.



Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2020, 08:27:47 AM »
Higher MTOW equals more pilots.

MTOW or range? (it's often similar, but not always)

Offline MuzhikRB

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 09:38:20 AM »
still dont undertstand how MTOW can influence number of pilots if you just transferring the schedule - not doing new longer one...

Offline Sami

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 09:51:00 AM »
Besides of the aircraft size group, also the aircraft MTOW is a one small factor in the staff calculations. This is because just the four size groups alone are not enough to make it realistic and the MTOW component is used to model the relative size of the aircraft and thus the assumed route/operation length of the aircraft, which in turn affects the crew rotations and to the number they are required. In cases where you switch one aircraft to another of a different model but same size group you may, in some cases, see small differences in the numbers. (one example: in my real-life operations I can tell that if we'd fly A319s alone it would take less crew than flying a fleet of A321s because the 321s do some longer rotations and longer layovers too, but this is of course wildly specific to each airline and operations area)

The whole aim of the staff system is to model the staff costs and crew requirements in a realistic level and produce accurate results in overall company level, but creating actual "crew schedules" on per-plane level is not possible of course. Overall the crew requirements are modelled after real life airlines (= we know from research how many pilots fly for certain fleet group and how many planes they have in total, and so forth - for example: one airline operated 7x B757 and they employed some 120 pilots for that fleet).

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 12:04:42 PM »
I shouldnt need to hire 10 more pilots to cover the exact same schedule just going from a -100 to a -200. I can understand in real life like the example Sami gave because the two types fly different missions. But if in real life you swapped out a 319 for a 321 for a month to cover a maintenance check you wouldnt need 10 more pilots to operate it. Its flying the same missions the 319 did.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2020, 12:14:55 PM »
I shouldnt need to hire 10 more pilots to cover the exact same schedule just going from a -100 to a -200. I can understand in real life like the example Sami gave because the two types fly different missions. But if in real life you swapped out a 319 for a 321 for a month to cover a maintenance check you wouldnt need 10 more pilots to operate it. Its flying the same missions the 319 did.

Yeah, ok, but how the system is supposed to know? Check the schedules? But at this point, where do you put the limit when your plane is flying a short hop and a 2500nm route?
Moreover, you go from, say, A319 to A321, you also change the service, you fly more pax, might need more time for this or that.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 12:24:13 PM »
AWS has the metric "hours in the air" for each aircraft. I would suggest this would be much more accurate for staffing than MTOW which really has nothing to do with staff though I get the rough correlation offered as justification.

S

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2020, 12:56:11 PM »
AWS has the metric "hours in the air" for each aircraft. I would suggest this would be much more accurate for staffing than MTOW which really has nothing to do with staff though I get the rough correlation offered as justification.

S

That one makes more sense, yeah.

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 12:42:54 PM »
Heres another question. Do i need cabin crew for cargo flights? I just added one cargo route and scheduled it and now i need 10 more cabin crew.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 01:07:33 PM »
Heres another question. Do i need cabin crew for cargo flights? I just added one cargo route and scheduled it and now i need 10 more cabin crew.

lol  no. was the flight on a proper freighter or a combo? If an F then I would suggest the need for 10 cabin crew was there before the freight flight was added..

Simon

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2020, 12:21:02 PM »
Couldnt have been there before for two reasons. I hadnt changed or added any passenger flights and I never got a warning until after I scheduled that new cargo route to a freighter.

Offline sanabas

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2020, 02:28:45 PM »
can just be a rounding thing. Adding the new plane might have added 1 cabin crew to your overall needs thanks to more OOB planes increasing a multiplier or something, and cabin crew is one of the categories that is always rounded to the nearest 10.

Or you may have simply changed a schedule from say a bristol 102 to a 302 much earlier, and not noticed you needed an extra 10. Being 10 short on 2000 cabin crew or whatever it is won't give you the 'not enough staff' warning box.

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2020, 08:23:47 PM »
Further to this i just switched a 727-100F to a 727-200AF and i am now 10 cabin crew short. I made sure i was fully staffed before made the switch. This has to be a glitch?

Offline sanabas

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2020, 11:28:17 PM »
It's just a rounding thing in there somewhere. I think because the formula looks at average composition of fleet you have scheduled, rather than says every individual plane needs 15 pilots and 30 cabin crew, or every individual freighter needs 15 pilots and 10 ground handlers, or whatever.

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2020, 11:16:18 AM »
It doesnt make sense though. You shouldnt have to add cabin crew when scheduling a freighter or even changing from one model to another model aircraft of the same type as in this case.

Offline sanabas

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2020, 12:12:12 PM »
As I said, I think it says 100 x 727s, average MTOW = x, % of pax planes = y, so number of pilots required is based just on x, and number of cabin crew required for pax-only is also based on x, and actual required = that number*y%, rounded to the nearest 10. Which is why when the average MTOW increases a little, you might see 1-2 extra cabin crew required, and so it might go from 14 to 16, round from 10 to 20. Can't say for sure that's exactly how it works, but I believe it'll be something similar.

It makes enough sense, because the staffing numbers are approximated, it's not done to the granular level of this plane flies exactly these routes and needs this many staff, and this identical plane flies a different set of routes and needs slightly different staff numbers. Or something like I'm flying 98 super connies on an inefficient schedule, I need however many ground handling, customer service, etc staff, and now I redo it, make things more efficient, add an extra 21 weekly flights, and yet I don't need any more staff to cover that. Because again, staff numbers are approximated, and they'll sometimes do counterintuitive things, like go from 6100 cabin crew to 6110 for an identical set of pax flights.

Offline Maxair

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2020, 05:04:23 AM »
And as i said it doesnt make any sense. Swapping cargo planes around should have zero effect on cabin crew. Im gonna pay x amount of dollars extra for cabin crew i dont need?? Why? Thats what im saying

Offline sanabas

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Re: Staffing
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2020, 05:34:25 AM »
I think paying 3k/week for a few bonus cabin crew when staff cost 20 mill/week overall is really not a big deal.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. But working out required staffing numbers by approximating it via a formula instead of working it out in fine detail based on every individual schedule & route is going to sometimes give results that don't make sense at individual plane level. They still make sense overall, which is the important thing.

 

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