Question about late-night flights

[fanglin]

I've been using sleepover routes extensively throughout my route networks, and I've always tried to keep it arriving before 2300 and leaving at 0600. This is a 420-minute layover, so it does eat up a lot of time. I was wondering how much flights departing/arriving between 2300-0000 and 0500-0600 are punished in terms of LF. I know it's not a  definite number, but I just keep reading "A little bit" and I'm not quite sure what that means and how it'd affect me.

Also, let's say I have a redeye flight departing at 2355 and landing at 0500, would this flight be double punished for having the times it does? Or would it be the same punishment if I flew 2355 to 0600?

Thank you!

[Tha_Ape]

1) IIRC, you lose about 10% of LF.

2) theoretically, yes.

However, from my own experience:
 - I rarely do sleepovers, rather overnight flights, and I don't care if they depart at 2355 or land at 0500 (always better though, if you can avoid it)
 - When I do, I land the latest I can and depart the soonest possible. Wasting 2 more hours is not worth it, when you compare it to the immobilization of your plane for 2 hours (idle=costing money).

[sanabas]

I don't worry about the penalty for 23xx or 05xx on shorthaul, I just fly them to get as much time in the air as possible. Even on LH 7 day schedules, I'll avoid 23xx takeoff if I can, but still use it if that's what's needed to make things fit.

00xx and 04xx I'll try and avoid, but I certainly do a few flights that are say 3:15 each way with a 1 hr timezone change, and so it's 2130-2345 outbound, 0030-0445 return, and the next flight leaves HQ at 0530. Or say 2350-0430 or 0050-0530 in one direction, when it's not quite far enough for a 23xx-05xx redeye. But in those cases, it wouldn't be on a route only big enough for a single flight, it's saved for 2nd or 3rd flight on a bigger route.

Also, best way to answer these questions is to fly them and see what happens.

[Tha_Ape]

00xx and 04xx I'll try and avoid, but I certainly do a few flights that are say 3:15 each way with a 1 hr timezone change, and so it's 2130-2345 outbound, 0030-0445 return, and the next flight leaves HQ at 0530. Or say 2350-0430 or 0050-0530 in one direction, when it's not quite far enough for a 23xx-05xx redeye. But in those cases, it wouldn't be on a route only big enough for a single flight, it's saved for 2nd or 3rd flight on a bigger route.

I usually avoid this at all cost. The only exception might be when I've run out of better option, and in this case I'd do it on very, very thick routes where the penalty will be minimal. And even though, I try to have at least one departure/arrival between 0500-2355 per leg.

[groundbum2]

I have loads of flights that leave base at say 2100("good") and land at 0420 (ie in the "bad" zone) then depart an hour later (737) at 0520 ("good").

I don't see any loss of business for landing at an ungodly hour. Empirical evidence suggests it's all about the departure time.

Simon

[sanabas]

I usually avoid this at all cost. The only exception might be when I've run out of better option, and in this case I'd do it on very, very thick routes where the penalty will be minimal. And even though, I try to have at least one departure/arrival between 0500-2355 per leg.

I'm happy to do it, I'd rather have the plane in the air. And on routes like that, one of the legs is flying at a good time.

I don't see any loss of business for landing at an ungodly hour. Empirical evidence suggests it's all about the departure time.

Same route, same direction, same plane, same pricing, from my current AG airline: 1200-1430 flight averages 31.3 pax, 2355-0225 leg averages 16.3.
On the return leg, 1515-1740 averages 33, 0300-0525 leg averages 2.6. I probably should drop the price there. 

Takeoff seems to matter more than landing, but landing still matters.

[Tha_Ape]

I'm happy to do it, I'd rather have the plane in the air. And on routes like that, one of the legs is flying at a good time.

Oh don't worry, I manage my way.
In SIN I had an average use of almost 19 hrs per day (but eh, ok, being mainly LH helps)
In USSR/Russia, "classical" airline with 400+ RJ (but good position for red eyes) I had an average use of 17+ hrs
Now, in AMS, despite being in a location with a lot of short hops and less red eye possibilities, plus lots of props sitting idle at night, I'm still at 16.8.
So yeah, solutions can be found with nice timings

[sanabas]

Of course. I've got one in HND currently, and all the destination curfews for domestic stuff have left far, far too much white space in my scheduling, it's making me twitch. But utilisation is still 16.7.

And in my all turboprop airline, with majority of planes idle overnight, it's almost 16 hours. A 40 seater doing 3 routes/day sitting idle overnight gets 15 hrs airborne, if you use 1% turns. The one doing a redeye or sort-of redeye gets 19.1.

It just means that it takes 250 planes instead of 260 to fill the same number of routes, and expands a little the number of routes I can practically fill. Both ways work fine. Same as using 1% or 2.8% or 10% turns as your regular. None of them are definitively the best.