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Author Topic: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C  (Read 752 times)

Offline Saul Goodman

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my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« on: January 17, 2020, 02:15:44 AM »
I'm flying the SFO-MUC route with a 747C (combi).
The still air range is 5450nm, the route is 5102nm. My payload limitation is 295 pax one eastward, 243 the other.
However, when I look at my route information page, I am seeing my seat configuration at Y240 / C24 which is right.....  but cargo capacity at CL 760kg / cs 1370kg, yet my max cargo is 65000 kg.
Where's my cargo?

Offline Lennertlenor

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 02:19:55 AM »
The given stil air range takes into account only pax+bags, no cargo. So flying at the edge of range you will not be taking any cargo. And while for pax flights this is good enough, in my opinion a number taking into account some cargo for combi's wouldn't be a bad idea.

Offline sanabas

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2020, 02:41:13 AM »
1 pax + bags = 100kg, roughly. If that exact plane is limited to 295 pax+bags for 5450NM (something you can check on the my aircraft page, you'll have that plane's exact range chart) and you have 264 seats, then you've only got space for ~3100kg of cargo.

Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2020, 04:26:45 AM »
1 pax + bags = 100kg, roughly. If that exact plane is limited to 295 pax+bags for 5450NM (something you can check on the my aircraft page, you'll have that plane's exact range chart) and you have 264 seats, then you've only got space for ~3100kg of cargo.
Got it, thanks. But what a huge drop in capacity when you use the 'advertized' range! The 747C's range show 5600nm but you would have lost 75% of capable capacity at that range. In fact, you start losing maximum capacity at about 1700nm, ouch! Ok these combis, not so great after all.
I was under the impression that at 5600nm, I can have 264 pax and 65000kg. And when I think of it, this is really misleading. I mean, if I am looking at the aircraft's page and see the range is 5600nm, 264pax and 65000kg cargo then that's what it should be. Not 264pax and 2000kg. You don't have this problem when looking at a pax or cargo plane.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 04:35:53 AM by Saul Goodman »

Offline schro

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2020, 04:32:25 AM »
Got it, thanks. But what a huge drop in capacity when you use the 'advertized' range! The 747C's range show 5600nm but you would have lost 75% of capable capacity at that range. In fact, you start losing maximum capacity at about 1700nm, ouch! Ok these combis, not so great after all.
I was under the impression that at 5600nm, I can have 264 pax and 65000kg.

The posted Combi ranges are quite unhelpful.

Offline DanDan

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2020, 04:44:46 AM »
Got it, thanks. But what a huge drop in capacity when you use the 'advertized' range! The 747C's range show 5600nm but you would have lost 75% of capable capacity at that range. In fact, you start losing maximum capacity at about 1700nm, ouch! Ok these combis, not so great after all.
I was under the impression that at 5600nm, I can have 264 pax and 65000kg. And when I think of it, this is really misleading. I mean, if I am looking at the aircraft's page and see the range is 5600nm, 264pax and 65000kg cargo then that's what it should be. Not 264pax and 2000kg. You don't have this problem when looking at a pax or cargo plane.

well, yes, the ranges stated for airplanes are not standardized in general. for cargo they are at maximum payload, for passenger/combi they are depending on the default seating configuration without any cargo (which usually leads to combi planes having the "best range").

Offline sanabas

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2020, 05:25:13 AM »
all 3 types can be a little misleading. Combi range is much higher than practical, freighter range significantly lower than what's practical, and now that cargo is a thing, the stated range for pax planes is a bit higher than usable, because it excludes belly cargo.

Hard to not be a bit misleading, because people want different configs for their planes.

So always good to look at actual range chart for a given plane before you decide to use it.

Offline Jake S

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2020, 08:32:41 AM »
I was under the impression that at 5600nm, I can have 264 pax and 65000kg. And when I think of it, this is really misleading. I mean, if I am looking at the aircraft's page and see the range is 5600nm, 264pax and 65000kg cargo then that's what it should be. Not 264pax and 2000kg. You don't have this problem when looking at a pax or cargo plane.
It's hardly misleading when you actually look at what's written tho  ;)

"People who invest in aviation are the biggest suckers in the world."

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2020, 09:29:58 AM »
Ok these combis, not so great after all.

No no, these combis are wonderful, especially if you want to start with LH and cargo: pax come in early (low RI) and allow for the route to break even relatively fast, especially as you'll have reduced capacity. And then, later, cargo comes in and give you a very, very good margin for these birds. You just need to know where to use them range-wise. But now you know, and you'll be able to do wonderful things.

Edit: also, pax demand is symmetrical, thus it compensates the asymmetry of cargo. Thus you'll get a very equilibrated route.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:34:56 AM by Tha_Ape »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2020, 11:25:28 AM »
The posted Combi ranges are quite unhelpful.

Isn't it basically the range where Combi aircraft carries no cargo?

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2020, 11:33:11 AM »
Isn't it basically the range where Combi aircraft carries no cargo?

It is.
Got to look at the payload/range graph and determine what's the useful cargo payload to be carried, and thus you'll have the "real" useful range.

Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2020, 08:40:12 PM »
It is.
Got to look at the payload/range graph and determine what's the useful cargo payload to be carried, and thus you'll have the "real" useful range.

I am sorta getting the hang of these combis now. And what is really different when looking for one is that you really need to look at the payload graph before deciding if it's right for you. If you compare this to a pax or a cargo aircraft, what you see is what you get when looking at the front page of the aircraft. I.e. 747-100 will carry 325 pax for 4650nm, 747-200F will carry 112000kg of cargo for 2200nm. Unlike the front page of a 747-200C which shows 252 pax, 65000 kg of cargo and 5380nm range. In that respect, it is misleading unless you dig further.
I think what would be fair to show a proper distribution of pax and cargo for a particular range so when we look at the front page, we have a good idea of the capabilities of this aircraft. For instance, I would put on the front page of the 747-200C; 186 pax, 10000kg cargo and 5000nm or something along those lines. At least this accurate. And I would add the max cargo capacity information.
And true the combis can be good, my most profitable aircraft is the 747-200C but on the SFO-EWR route. I only have 2 of them, trying them out. But I may get another 5 for a 7-day schedule.
What are your thoughts?

Offline sanabas

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2020, 11:31:18 PM »
And what is really different when looking for one is that you really need to look at the payload graph before deciding if it's right for you.

You need to do this for all planes.

Quote
747-200F will carry 112000kg of cargo for 2200nm.

This isn't helpful, because who is going to be looking at a 747 freighter and not have 4000, 5000, 6000NM routes to use it on? So it's just as important to know it can carry 90,000kg 4500 NM (as it is to know it carries 112000kg for 2200NM.

Quote
Unlike the front page of a 747-200C which shows 252 pax, 65000 kg of cargo and 5380nm range. In that respect, it is misleading unless you dig further.
I think what would be fair to show a proper distribution of pax and cargo for a particular range so when we look at the front page, we have a good idea of the capabilities of this aircraft. For instance, I would put on the front page of the 747-200C; 186 pax, 10000kg cargo and 5000nm or something along those lines. At least this accurate. And I would add the max cargo capacity information.

It'd be better to treat the combi like a freighter for displayed range purposes. Show the range for default pax + max cargo. So in the 747's case, it'd likely also show 2200 NM, then anyone who makes a mistake underestimates its ability rather than overestimating it.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: my cargo supply is too low on my 747C
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2020, 09:01:55 AM »
My rule of thumb for freighters is: useful range is roughly range at 2/3 capacity. Doesn't prevent tech-stops, however.
Though on certain occasions (high HC demand), I might go beyond this "useful range" as the reward compensates the loss of capacity.
Also, the more symmetrical the demand is, the further you can go beyond this "useful range".

For combis, you can mitigate it with the effect of pax, as it's not asymmetrical. Don't remember the exact range, but I used MD-11C on SIN-LHR, ~115 pax and 10/10/80 cargo repartition (but this was before ESAD, thus you'd have to adapt it).

 

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