Another used market open only to small airlines ?

[Tha_Ape]

Hi all,

I read other threads that mention my initial observation, but none that makes this proposal, so...

Some big companies use to buy almost everything that's new and desirable on release date, and production slots then becomes full for years.
Then these companies resell those AC to others on the day they are delivered with a 15-20% margin.
And other airlines are then unable to have their wanted AC before years, or have to pay an extra fee. Sometimes just because they weren't online for a few days when the announcement was released.

And that doesn't seem quite fair, as those massive purchase are by far not related with real needs of these enormous buyers. It's even sometimes a type they don't fly.

While resell / lease a few aircraft is completely comprehensible (you do not know the exact number you'll need, as you're still expanding), when it goes to 20 or 50 or more, you become an aircraft broker. And this game ain't an aircraft broker simulation.

Other big companies and even medium can still afford buying those planes, but for small ones the cost is just too high.

So I would suggest to add a second used market that only small companies would have access to (they would have access to both of them, then).
In this UM there would be only more or less recent planes sold by virtual brokers. It could be fed by "phantom" prod slots, or by adding more slots in production lines, and they would be reserved to virtual brokers.
And once your pre-tax profit gets too high, combined with your company size, you would be expelled from this market as the system then considers you can buy from the "regular" market.
This market then wouldn't be a goldmine, just a slight help, and for a limited period of time, for new airlines.
And it wouldn't stop big broker boys to sell brand new planes at high prices, but it could also limit the phenomenon and liberate some slots on production lines for, say, these medium companies that have just been expelled from this restricted UM.
Something like that might also give more casual players a chance to compete for real, instead of getting smashed at once.

What would you think about that ?

A.

[gazzz0x2z]

Well, learn to have profit with inferior airplanes. I had a lot of success with A148, and noone was contesting me the monopoly on those babies. Some players specialize in MD80s way beyond their reasonable end date, and still have success. The SSJs are usually not much used either, or the C919 later in the game. That's a kickass plane, ignored usually for bad reasons.

I don't know well the previous eras, but my uneducated guess is that less-in-demand aircraft are always findable, at least new, for a good price. So you have to adapt. This game is a lot about adapting. Players who arrive with a predefined strategy and try to apply it without trying to understand their game world usually crash quickly. In current GW3, I'm the big boy in CDG. Plenty of new players arrived and tried long range over there. There was no place for them. They were vanquished. OTOH, the guy with his Q400 on small routes is not really someone I can fight. And there is this strong newcomer who spammed 100 or so 737 the first year on all routes below 600NM, and who I can't really fight back. He's taking a toll on my profitability. That's the game.

Those last 2 might last a long time, because they adapted their strategy to what was possible. Not to what they think should be possible in CDG. Same is to be said about fleet choices. If you are too small to dominate the market and pay cash 188 airframes delivered within 13 years, then wait for opportunities. One of the strengths of the A148 is exactly that noone wants to fly them. In a previous GW3, I've been able to secure them at 13M$, and the A158 variant for 19M$. OK, they are 10% costlier in terms of fuel, and double in terms of maintenance. Who cares? You can get 3 of them for less than the price of a E170. And grow your company, while other players wait and whine for insanely priced ejets. Later, when you are becoming big and rich, you can switch to superior options like the MRJ, and ditch the A148s before the 16-years D-Check.

I vanquished plenty of opponents who flew Ejets they leased for 125k$ per week. While I had less than 10k$ in depreciation. Yes, when aircraft are so cheap, you can buy them, which improves your cash flow. Even if I was paying 20k$ more in fuel, and 10k$ more in maintenance, why care? That's paying big bucks to spare trinkets. Yes the Ejet is overall far better than the A148. Yet, within a game dynamic, it can still be wise - especially if you can't afford to purchase the ejets new - to bypass them and go to the "inferior" option. That is in fact superior in your specific situation. Other families are good for that too, the J728 comes to mind, the A140, the C919.....

[Tha_Ape]

Ok, I think I understand what you mean, and that's quite correct too. Indeed, I completely agree with you about having to make the wise choice, and not to be able to do anything we would like to. Already read another thread where you talk of this guy with Q400, and that's great.

But here's with more details what I mean.

I arrived in GW4 quite late (1988, now it's Christmas 1994), and I switched from 732 to 733 and was able to do this because right at that moment I needed to change fleet I entered an alliance, and various members have been able to help me a lot (selling mid-old ones, or buy-then-lease-to-me-to-buy-later to increase renewal rate). But without them I would have been properly naked (hem, "à poil", in french, ie without anything), and the change would have take much more years.

Sure, I could have moved to MDs instead, or F-100/70. That would have changed a lot the global aspect of my company, and it would still have been interesting.

But, related to the market, the 733-4-5 was still the best option. And at that point, all production slots were booked for 3 years, and the few on the UM were 20% more expensive than the manufacturer ones, sold by the same people that booked the prod slots.

Thus what kept me from growing the best way (if not "saved" by the alliance) was neither the market and direct competitors, nor the manufacturer price of AC, but companies with their bases 10000 miles from mine, when I serve mainly domestic traffic.

It's rather the combination of these two elements that I consider a little frustrating (there are challenging things - what you talked about - and this is good, but these aren't).

Hence the proposal of a second UM for small airlines, to help them by getting rid - temporarily - of human brokers making profits on other airlines (and thus not competing as airlines).

And that help would then last only a short time, as anybody who wants to succeed and think well enough can do it. It would only be an initial push. Say, for airlines under 30 AC and under 5-7 millions / week.

[gazzz0x2z]

I see. Still, you're doing 31,62% of margin. With MD80s, you'd be at 28% or something like that. Not devastating, in my eyes. And that's if the MD80s are as costly as the 737-300. I can't check prices in a mentored game, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 737 far costlier than MD80s. Erasing the fuel advantage.

For a mediocre player, who is at 3% of margin, having the right plane can be the difference between life an death. For an excellent player as you are(just had a look at your stats, could not find any weak point), well, that's just marginally less efficient. Mediocre players who don't succeed to improve their profitability(I did see plenty of them as a mentor) won't stay long in the game anyways. They may stay afloat a little bit more thanks to better airplanes, but as soon as someone wants their place, they are toasted anyways.

It requires the ability to adapt to survive the game. The 3% of margin that access to better planes give you are not what will do or undo your game. It's pleasant, nice to have, but it's perfectly possible to do without. Just adapt to what you have. Being in an alliance helps for the level of advice(maybe you kick ass as a player thanks to your alliance giving you advice), and for giving you access to a hidden UM, but still : if you're too rigid to apply properly the advice, you're dead. If you're clever enough to adapt, you'll adapt also to an hostile UM. I did. There was no J728 in those times, CRJs were getting insanely pricey, Ejets were absent from the UM and impossible to buy either, ERJs were too small for replacing my CRJs, SSJs were not to come before a few years. And I kicked a few asses with A148. I analyzed all available aircraft in my niche, did the math, and found that A148 were good enough for my uses.

Helping the newcomers with advice is a good thing, but giving them the habit of finding unfindable planes, and the closing them access to this shadow UM as soon as they grow is not pedagogic, in my opinion. Maybe even punishing - they have all the A320 they want, they get some success, and get punished for their success. We'd better focus on better assistant messages(you are leasing a Y42. That's the last one on the UM, it opens you a new fleet group, which is costly, and the production line is definitively closed. Are you sure?)(you're opening your HQ in Heathrow, where big players with thousands of aircraft routinely vanquish newcomers with stupidly low price wherever you set a route. And you don't have any slot remaining to open any new route anyways. Are you sure to open there?)(You already have 12 flying fleet groups, and this would be your 13th, dooming your company to a certain quick death. Are you sure you want to order this Concorde?) - which would help newcomers to avoid beginner's mistakes.

(dreaming mode)One day, I'll play with Y42. One day. I'll have to buy them all by myself, of course. I'll even make some small money with them!!! yeah!!!(end of dreaming mode).

[MRothschild]

Reuters (CHICAGO) - Managing Member of the Phoenix Alliance, MRothschild (Michael), released the following statement today from the Corporate Headquarters of Adventia Airways:

"In response to the recent forum discussions about the difficulty in new or smaller airlines obtaining aircraft at competitive prices, I want to kindly bring notice to the fact that the Phoenix Alliance and its members are glad to help non-alliance-affiliated players obtain aircraft in a fast and inexpensive fashion.  Our alliance is not focused on protecting our members by exploiting the aircraft markets, as we are able to protect members by simply supporting good performance.  As a result, we value competition and fair opportunity, so if any small or new airline would like to purchase or lease popular aircraft at a competitive (non-inflated) price or would like to speed the deliveries of their new aircraft, simply send me a private message and we'll accommodate.  Just recently we even accommodated a larger order for an airline of another alliance.  He was seeking quotes for the cheapest provider, and true to form, the Phoenix Alliance had the lowest bid."

Michael continued, "the bottom line is this: we operate our alliance in a way that encourages competition.  The more satisfied and successful players in our Game World #4, the better.  The challenge makes us stronger and increases our paid experience as much as possible.  What's the point of paying for this simulation if it was easy?"

[Tha_Ape]

I reckon you've been good on that one

Congratulations!

[MuzhikRB]

A-Team also helping new members.

To your topic:

any limitations to free market make it harder to balance the game

[Tha_Ape]

As you can see from my recent experience, so does Sky Alliance.
Should we make some kind of a club, an alliance of alliances?

[Peanutoil]

A-Team also helping new members.

To your topic:

any limitations to free market make it harder to balance the game

I always offer new planes to newbies. I also fly Tu-114 and Comet in 1990s. I believe if you got the right choice from UM you can survive anyways. If there are too much advantages for newcomers, it would be in turn a punishment for those play from beginning of the game. The UM was always deserted during the beginning years, so I can't see the point of opening a new UM.

[MRothschild]

I've found this community to be friendly, so those needing help on the used market (this includes myself at times) are best advised to make the effort and reach out to negotiate a deal.  This is how friends are made.  😀