too big Alliances

[josh99]

From experience,  I found you should never criticise or even be seen to criticise any member of elite alliance,  or they will hunt you down.

They will open an airline at your base and will they open up on any of the 1049 possible routes with plenty of demand that don't have airlines on them or will they open up on the six routes your airline does?    Yep, you've got it,  they will target your routes to drive you out.

So, anyone who is unsure, or new, or even has the nerve to suggest something,  don't ever criticize or even be perceived to criticise Elite Alliance if you want to continue to enjoy playing the game.   

[[SC] - King Kong]

From experience,  I found you should never criticise or even be seen to criticise any member of elite alliance,  or they will hunt you down.

They will open an airline at your base and will they open up on any of the 1049 possible routes with plenty of demand that don't have airlines on them or will they open up on the six routes your airline does?    Yep, you've got it,  they will target your routes to drive you out.

So, anyone who is unsure, or new, or even has the nerve to suggest something,  don't ever criticize or even be perceived to criticise Elite Alliance if you want to continue to enjoy playing the game.   

Cry Cry... what a nonsense

[gazzz0x2z]

From experience,  I found you should never criticise or even be seen to criticise any member of elite alliance,  or they will hunt you down.(.../...)

I did criticize them, quite a few times. Other guys did attack me then, they did not. I won the fight. RIP other guys. Elite did then recruit me. Maybe I did something right.

So maybe I'm lucky, or whatever. Still, the best way not to be attacked is to look strong. I always made my possible to look strong. Eliminate foes, cover your niche as much as you can, have a strong profitability, don't leave any hole or vulnerability, and clever players will avoid messing with you.

They will open an airline at your base and will they open up on any of the 1049 possible routes with plenty of demand that don't have airlines on them or will they open up on the six routes your airline does?    Yep, you've got it,  they will target your routes to drive you out.

Well, the way the game is done, it's worth it only if you are weak. Do it against a strong opponent(look at BingoWings or KidCo in Detroit, current GW3 : noone sane wants to settle there), and you're toasted. Elite member or not.

It was only my second game, I was part of a tiny alliance, and I had built strongholds in Edinburgh and London City, and looked for expansion. The two companies in Hamburg looked very weak. Had they criticized me? No. But they looked like targets. Wrong fleet choices, bad schedules, poor pricing, profitability next to zero, low cash. I landed there with my ERJs against their 737-800 on 120-demand, 200NM lines. Half of my new lines on juicy empty lines. Half of my lines on their most vulnerable spots, financed by the first half. They didn't last one year. They'd have died anyways. I just sped up the process. That's the game dynamics.

Now imagine a good player says bad things about me. Will I care? Why should I care? I care about developping my company, not about ego. And it sometimes means I've got to help weak companies to BK quicker. I do need the slots. That's just a competitive game, and some players happen to be on my way to success...and to weak to resist me. Winning the game is about focusing about important strategic goals. It's not about pursuing petty vengeance. Vengeance is a distraction from an efficient game.

[josh99]

Thanks for the reply, nice to know where you stand.

But remember 'weak' airlines/players are also still just people trying to play a game, trying to have fun and by deliberately attacking them in such a way to "help" them bankrupt quicker isn't helping or a very nice thing to do and is perhaps playing that way is indicative of why the Elite reputation is the way it is.     

[josh99]

Cry Cry... what a nonsense

Not nonsense at all,   actual FACT

[JumboShrimp]

Thanks for the reply, nice to know where you stand.

But remember 'weak' airlines/players are also still just people trying to play a game, trying to have fun and by deliberately attacking them in such a way to "help" them bankrupt quicker isn't helping or a very nice thing to do and is perhaps playing that way is indicative of why the Elite reputation is the way it is.   

The standard games have competition.  Beginners worlds are more of a sandbox.

When there is competition, it's dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest.

Just think of the National Geographic videos with a herd of animals, and one of them looks sickly, is limping.  The predators can identify this animal with great efficiency.  And instead of a bruising battle with a strong and healthy animal, they go for the weakest one, to feed, to live to the next day.

gazzz0x2z actually gave you the best answer.  You need to appear strong.  It takes experienced player just seconds to analyze how strong an airline is.  So when looking for a new base for example, you would look at airlines, how strategic they are how strong they are.  If you appear strong, the player (Elite or otherwise) may just decide to move on, open a base at a different airport...

[JumboShrimp]

Do it against a strong opponent(look at BingoWings or KidCo in Detroit, current GW3

Interesting that KidCo is back.  One of the old time players.

In my very first game, I started at DTW, I was playing against KidCo there, if my memory serves me well.  I prevailed, but I don't want to give myself credit for beating one of the better players at my very first game.  I think he may have just lost interest.  I could not really tell...

[schro]

Thanks for the reply, nice to know where you stand.

But remember 'weak' airlines/players are also still just people trying to play a game, trying to have fun and by deliberately attacking them in such a way to "help" them bankrupt quicker isn't helping or a very nice thing to do and is perhaps playing that way is indicative of why the Elite reputation is the way it is.   

It's not an Elite specific behavior though... If you're running a business and want to increase it's size/profitability and the only way to do that is through expansion to a new location, you're going to evaluate each of your options and chose the best one.

In this case, suppose you have the option of expanding to two different bases. Option A has a competitor that has all demand well covered and their financials look very strong. Option B has a competitor who has less than half the demand adequately covered and they're barely breaking even and paying bills. Which option are you going to chose?

There's simply no systemic retaliation going on that Elite leadership is aware of, nor would we encourage such a thing. We do assist our members with evaluating their base options when they ask for help, but that's a very rare thing to happen these days...

[VitoNg]

It's not an Elite specific behavior though... If you're running a business and want to increase it's size/profitability and the only way to do that is through expansion to a new location, you're going to evaluate each of your options and chose the best one.

In this case, suppose you have the option of expanding to two different bases. Option A has a competitor that has all demand well covered and their financials look very strong. Option B has a competitor who has less than half the demand adequately covered and they're barely breaking even and paying bills. Which option are you going to chose?

There's simply no systemic retaliation going on that Elite leadership is aware of, nor would we encourage such a thing. We do assist our members with evaluating their base options when they ask for help, but that's a very rare thing to happen these days...

There were some rare case that Elite Players attacked on strong players when opening base. However it was long ago and the gameworld is so crowded Elite players may not have much good choice. I agree with you that Elite players are looking for profit but not attacking a specific players when opening bases.

[josh99]

So what you are saying is that an elite member would not open a base, and then only fly on routes that someone headquartered at that base was flying and not fly on routes where no-one is currently flying? 

But, whats that....oh  yes thats is exactly what one of your members is doing right now.....  of course,  elite members would not target a player like that would they...... if it was just in one game world it could be argued that it was just natural expansion,  but as it is happening in two it would be one hell of a coincidence.


But hey,  it's all rather academic now anyway,  you've won,  as I'm out. 

[JumboShrimp]

So what you are saying is that an elite member would not open a base, and then only fly on routes that someone headquartered at that base was flying and not fly on routes where no-one is currently flying? 

If your airline was new, in business for a year or less, it would be against the rules.  If your airline has been in business for a long time, it is just competition.  You might do the same thing in the next game world as you gain experience.

As far as a result of a battle between a very strong and a weak airline barely making profit, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.  Nothing is going to change the outcome.  As far as the strategy regarding your very specific question (what I would do):

I would look at the slots at the airport.  If they are plentiful, I would first fly the routes you are not flying.  If the slots are scarce, or some hours are not available, I would first fly on your routes.

[schro]

So what you are saying is that an elite member would not open a base, and then only fly on routes that someone headquartered at that base was flying and not fly on routes where no-one is currently flying? 

But, whats that....oh  yes thats is exactly what one of your members is doing right now.....  of course,  elite members would not target a player like that would they...... if it was just in one game world it could be argued that it was just natural expansion,  but as it is happening in two it would be one hell of a coincidence.


But hey,  it's all rather academic now anyway,  you've won,  as I'm out.

I'm not saying that they would not (as we can't possibly monitor/enforce a playing guideline), but I am saying that they should not open a base in that manner. If that's happening then reporting it to game administration as a "targeting" offense would be the appropriate action (unless, of course, you want to see if the alliance managers are able to help first). It's possible for the game administration to review logs to help make a determination of intent of the player...

Now, as a lazy player myself, I can see a few situations where such a thing could happen unintentionally. For example, not bothering to look beyond the first page or two of available routes, or perhaps electing to only fly on higher demand routes. Also, hitting the limit of planes outside your base can pause things for a bit.

If your airline was new, in business for a year or less, it would be against the rules.

Intentional targeting is against the rules regardless of age, it's just more heavily frowned upon when it's a small/new entrant....

Any coordinated "attacks" by single airlines, alliances, or by any other group of airlines, to prevent some airline from operating on a route or to deliberately push some airline out of the simulation are not allowed. Competition is generally free in the sim but any clearly unfair competition measures such as flying routes with huge overcapacity and with very low prices and deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline.

[Zombie Slayer]

So what you are saying is that an elite member would not open a base, and then only fly on routes that someone headquartered at that base was flying and not fly on routes where no-one is currently flying? 

But, whats that....oh  yes thats is exactly what one of your members is doing right now.....  of course,  elite members would not target a player like that would they...... if it was just in one game world it could be argued that it was just natural expansion,  but as it is happening in two it would be one hell of a coincidence.


But hey,  it's all rather academic now anyway,  you've won,  as I'm out.

But...where is this happening?!

You have one airline in Game World 2, you are based in LTN with several bases throughout Great Britain. There is not an Elite airline at any of your bases. Please, anyone, feel free to check. Not. One. Elite. Airline.

The only Elite airline EVER to share a base with you was me at BHX, a base that I opened well before you opened it in 1983, and a base that I closed at some point, possibly when  AMS became available as a base (but not sure, could have been to take advantage of a LGW Bankruptcy as well.) Let me assure you, if it is me you are referring to, you can step down off your soap box because, son, I didn't even notice your presence....

Edit: Came to my attention that it was GW3 you were talking about. The base in question has about 20 viable routes (I know, I have had a base there before....) which makes it kind of hard to not have overlap. You -might- have an argument if you were talking about at BHX type base, but LCY? Please....

[MuzhikRB]

he has Airlines in GW3 and GW4 - and all closed yesterday.

I propose Elite to invite him to Alliance and mentor.

that will close all future questions I hope.

P.S and yes. I have been intentionally attacked by Zombie in GW3. I see it against the rules, because he is more online than me   

[Zombie Slayer]

he has Airlines in GW3 and GW4 - and all closed yesterday.

I propose Elite to invite him to Alliance and mentor.

that will close all future questions I hope.

P.S and yes. I have been intentionally attacked by Zombie in GW3. I see it against the rules, because he is more online than me   

I shall squash you like bug 

If Joshua chose to join us (barring base conflicts, although in GW2 I do not see any) he would not be the first player to publicly complain about us to end up joining us! Despite our tough appearance, we are actually a fun group of guys 

[gazzz0x2z]

I think he was speaking about LCY. It's a damn tough place to play. I had success there, but potential is tiny and opposition is insane. For some reason, it attracts opposition even when locked. I've seen no less than 5 companies attacking me there, none did survive more than 3 years. And I had something like 65% of the pax, and slots were impossible to find. Still opponents were attracted. RIP.

So it's a low-potential, high-opposition base. Not a good HQ at all. With similar potential, in the same country, Prestwick, Southampton or Cardiff are far better places to land a HQ. It's anonymous airports, not many people care about them, you're more quiet. I had a lot of fun in Cardiff, stuffing it with MAX7 flights to USA. Made good money. Don't use this as an opening move, though, the investment is draining.

[MaxtheMoonMonkey]

i have found more aggressive behavior from unattached top players than by any particular alliance in the past, for instance my gf opened a base in Miami in gw2 as her first base, within 2 months a top airline in the US, flying tiger i think it was, opened a base and flooded her routes to the point where he was providing 3 seats for every 1 she did, shortly after she went BK they closed that airport, and if i hadn't told her that this will happen quite often and to try again she would have stopped playing then and there. so im sure unsportsmanlike conduct is happening inside the rules but there isn't any particular alliance doing it and if alliances are it wouldn't be alliance organised, maybe one or two or even a solo gig where the other member doesn't notice.
the happy end to the story is my gf is now doing well in 2 game worlds though she gets nervous when someone opens in one of her airports

[MRothschild]

"An army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heights and hastens to the lowlands, so an army avoids strength and strikes weakness."  Sun Tzu 

Isn't the point of our game to compete?  I don't understand the delicate dancing being done here.  I welcome competition, for it sharpens my mental blades.

[Johan87]

Actually it was funny to see how 1 airliner don't want to join an Alliance,but once i restarted my airliner in Dulles airport as there was an oppertunitty actually he opponent his base within same day.
not 1 st time something like this happens USA is a big field with many different players.
Look at the tour the France,sometimes a no.3 spot will help no.1 spot to reach the 2nd spot even they are in different teams.
Everyone have there own goals in this game.
for example:Elite loves personal high rankings,trent i see.
Modern want to play the planes they like 5 fleets or not just for the fun.
A-team,Earth connection,world Alliance,sky and etc. have also there own plans.
So the bigger the playing field the more likely you gett competition.
Unless you base in Zimbabwe or North-Korea for example,guess once you established an airliner there you will be the only one based there.

[Johan87]

Oh for i gett a comment about Elite loves persona high ranking.

I don't mean something bad with this,just i see most Elite players play for winning the game.
Just to point out 1 direction how you can play where most Modern players are new or playing the types they want.

This is the difference which sometimes collide.
I had the same in gw1 when i moved to Kuwait(before the Dulles)there was another player,when i expended it will also hit his routes as this will happen in time anyway.

Yes i had the same impression as Joshua Jordan indeed,but it is just that in USA Elite have many members if you have for example 7 members and all can have 10 bases then it is easy to cover all the big cities.
So then they will compete with the smaller or weaker airliners habbit of the game.

GW3 have also A-team members and now there are A-team and Elite members in same base so this will be a different development then in gw1 where Elite have less resistance then in gw3.

Saw this in gw2 once an airliner fall away suddenly you can increase profits with over 300% and double your passenger numbers.
Easy to write about unfair competition but it is good to know how we all feel about this.

So maybe a mini game would be intresting for players as the next step after the beginners world as i read before that the big players mostly like the long worlds and not the extra games.
Maybe this can be a tip to improof the gamming first and/or go for a smaller base ouside the busy countries like USA/Canada/Japan/UK before going in a long world with big base.