too big Alliances

[Zombie Slayer]

I literally cannot see the connection between having less players in an alliance and it reducing competition. The number of large airlines and competition wouldn't go down, the alliances would do exactly what Elite did years ago which is split into an Elite First team and a second alliance, which I shall call Elite(ish)!

As for making it smaller it has this one major downside, Experience is not handed down to newer players. If we went back to even 25, Elite and others would fill up on their Core member bases and the best airlines, quite often the more experienced players in the game. The would be less room for the less experienced to get into an alliance like Elite, World Connection etc.

As for coordination, I have never known an alliance coordinate an attack on an airline, if any airline has a soft underbelly and an airline can take advantage of that the competition can hurt. It doesn't matter if you are aligned or not, it's a competitive market, we take the breaks we get. We keep a collective eye on things, often noting an airline that looks weak or is about to go under. It is worth noting many airlines go bankrupt not because of alliance attack or anything, but boredom, mismanagement (I've made a few mistakes) or just not having the time to continue. A weak airline will be vulnerable to any kind of competition, if they are at a big base they will find competition from 10's maybe even 100's of airlines on all their routes.

The Game is not perfect, I think the current system is a good compromise all in all. To change the balance of the game like you desire a fundamental code change is what's needed, not a simple alliance tweak. The tweak you are suggesting would see us back to the situation years ago where an alliance has two in a Gameworld, with waiting lists again. That's not progress in my book.

Except that was A-Team (or their predecessor, can't remember how long ago that was) with their "minor league" alliance called Pioneer. Elite NEVER had a second alliance to increase membership.

[[ATA] Hassel]

I started this treath in the hope that atleast 1 long game world would be different from the others and see if people have different oppinions about the present system of 4 worlds with all same rule system.

Basically if disable Alliance option and the used planes can be sold with a smaller profit/lose margin,then we gett a real game which we will be fight for ourself and make the game a real battle.off course some airliners will help eachother,but cannot be possible in the big way it happens now.
I would join this kind of game as then you have to work your way trough your self,or just minimize the Alliance option.
Some airliners where not as good as they are now as they goth the help from alliances to keep there precese in a region.
How great would it be just to play 1 long game by yourself and grow an airliner by yourself.
I like this game indeed,but i also like some diversaty between gameworld.

So from your suggestion of cutting alliance members to 10-15 members, you now suggest a game without any alliance what-so ever?

I think you mis-understand the meaning behind a multiplayer browser game. If you want to run an airline alone without competition or alliance then there is many other simulation out there on the web which will suit your needs,

AWS is a multiplayer browser game and you should expect players to be able to interact with each other in terms of competing and making alliances. Thats the whole point on a multiplayer platform. 

[fedot12345]

Too much for me to read and I cannot be bothered to join the discussion, but I'll put my thoughts down about alliances being too big.

To be perfectly honest I agree with the fact that 40 player alliances are too big for any game because it creates an 'alliance monopoly' amongst 3-4 alliances in any GW. So lets say there are 500 players in a GW and 4 alliances with 40 players each. This equals 160 in an alliance and 340 unaligned so 32%. As the game progresses, most unaligned players will probably disappear, maybe due to lack of experience or tight competition and maybe some alliance players would leave as well for the same reasons. Once the second half of the GW starts, chances are that there will be many more alliance players than unaligned players. Then, even more unaligned would disappear off the radar and towards the end, the game turns into the 'battle of titans' with alliance players just competing against each other with unaligned players almost not existing. This wrecks the whole point of the game of having a fair playfield between alliance players and unaligned players.

Not only it becomes hectic to operate an alliance with 40 players but also scoring alliance points follows more of a 'size of the boat' trend instead of true skill where airlines try to get the №1 spot in some way or another. Let me explain, every time an alliance hires a player they get a certain amount of points. Lets say one is able to hire 40 and another only 25 players. Even if there is a higher proportion of high-scoring airlines in the alliance with 25 points than 40, the latter still has more points thanks to the fact that hiring new players score the most points. Even if let's say half of the players leave the alliance with 40 players to start with, then they would still be miles ahead points wise thanks to the player addition bonus, especially of the players left the alliance 24hrs before declaring bankrupcy. This makes it almost impossible for the 25 player alliance to catch up assuming they also loose a couple of players during the GW through skill.

I personally think that to satisfy both sides through a compromise, there should be a 30 player limit and no higher in any GW.

[VitoNg]

Except that was A-Team (or their predecessor, can't remember how long ago that was) with their "minor league" alliance called Pioneer. Elite NEVER had a second alliance to increase membership.

It was 5 yrs ago last for one MT game world only.
Good memory, Jumbomouse.

[Zombie Slayer]

And I don't think it's a big deal, just pointing out that it was not Elite since we tend to get blamed for everything. Also, who is jumbomouse?

[VitoNg]

And I don't think it's a big deal, just pointing out that it was not Elite since we tend to get blamed for everything. Also, who is jumbomouse?

What's your old username then? bad memory. lol
Yeah, that was old issue we have only 25 slots for an alliance so we tried some workaround. And this wasn't a big deal indeed Pioneer wasn't an subsudiary alliance and it competed with SkyConnect in some base.

[Zombie Slayer]

Ahh, my old username was Jetwest, but I do remember a jumbomouse at one point. I was scratching my head trying to figure out how he fit into the conversation!

[VitoNg]

Ahh, my old username was Jetwest, but I do remember a jumbomouse at one point. I was scratching my head trying to figure out how he fit into the conversation!

That proves you have better memory than me!

[freshmore]

Ahh, I'm sure I read it on in this thread somewhere, I was just going with what was said, not totally off memory. I could remember some alliance doing it but it was so long ago its a bit hazy. Regardless, my view still stands, lower the number in an alliance, that's a regressive action based on past experience for me.

[AUpilot77]

How great would it be just to play 1 long game by yourself and grow an airliner by yourself.
I like this game indeed,but i also like some diversaty between gameworld.

While we're on the topic of different style game worlds, I always thought it'd be fun to have an anti-beginners world    A place where the difficulty is increased, higher fuel prices etc, and then removed the max 10 base limit, removed max aircraft away from HQ limit, allowed players to run airlines on different continents and countries with complete freedom. Alliances could (if they wanted to) base multiple airlines at one airport, no penalty for over-supply etc...   

[gazzz0x2z]

I always thought it'd be fun to have an anti-beginners world

There would not be much players surviving at the end. But those would probably have excellent margins. Or not. If there are not a lot of players, there are not a lot of brokers, and it'"s quickly tough to fill your needs in terms of airplanes, which means you have tougher times to bully the smaller players, etc..... Dynamics are tough to predict.

[VitoNg]

Or should we have an play-off gameworld, inviting all strong players. With increased difficulty the survivor can claim the championship. 

[[ATA] Sunbao]

Wel could also start with just making all worlds hard instead of total easy mode

[Johan87]

No i mean like in the begginer's wold where the Alliance option is disabled.
just for a different development.

So from your suggestion of cutting alliance members to 10-15 members, you now suggest a game without any alliance what-so ever?

I think you mis-understand the meaning behind a multiplayer browser game. If you want to run an airline alone without competition or alliance then there is many other simulation out there on the web which will suit your needs,

AWS is a multiplayer browser game and you should expect players to be able to interact with each other in terms of competing and making alliances. Thats the whole point on a multiplayer platform.

[Johan87]

Well Elite is part of making the game hard(this is meant as a compliment and not as a bite towards you guys)
and there are plenty of players who are intermediate and so that is the call for 1 game world with a different game style.
so everyone is happy.
but because Elite is defending this 4 worlds same style the hardest,so the punch come towards you guys as many are beeing pushed out because of the big Alliance way of gammming and leaving stand alone chanceless,if they are in your way of playing.
Any game have usually atleast 3 types of level for a full game and here have only 1(begginers worlds and mini games are just 10 years so not very good for developing fleet development skills as here together with the fuel spike will make fall airliners by the bunch)

personally i like the compatative game and try to reach the highest score off course which i play in 3 long worlds and 1 i play for fun and enjoy my airliner just for having an airliner and also with competition off course.
if i would do this in a big busy country i will be broken by a big group of players with support and not on a 1 on 1 battle(meaning battle with airliners without Alliance support).o a long world where you have to do this where everyone is a stand alone airliner,this give the chance to more of us to survive,i am sure of.
I don't say make an easy long game world,but just allince disabled and see what happens.
And if put a lower difficulty to it can also disable the achievements.
Or just like Always there are fuel spikes 2 real weeks before a new game world open(gw1 just finished and gw4 is starting and gw2 is higher too) there can be the stand alone achievements fo example to attract more players into starting the new game world.

And I don't think it's a big deal, just pointing out that it was not Elite since we tend to get blamed for everything. Also, who is jumbomouse?

[gazzz0x2z]

@Seven. Once again, you are confusing causes. Big alliances(not only elite, btw) are big because they happen to have big players. That's all. Coordination just prevents from attacking each other, but it's a small advantage. I just played a GW3 with bases in KDTW and KJFK(not the smallest airport of the game), and was attacked by none of the big alliance(ATA & Elite). I was still attacked by excellent players, who were either intependent, or members of smaller alliances.

Big juicy bases will be occupied by excellent players, and average players will be wiped out from them. While they can survive in smaller airbases(my first 2 GW3s were with HQs in Glasgow & Edinburgh, places small enough to have survival hopes, and my biggest base was Warszawa).

For the plane availability : If you stick to popular not-brand-new fleet groups, you'll have easy birds on the UM for your needs. And if there is no alliance, demand on the UM will be even stronger, and wild brokers as I was in last GW3 will be in even bigger numbers. What is a wild broker? Someone with enough cash to buy 40 A321neo (s)he does not need, and put them on the used market to make profit. It's a risky job(I sold the last ones of my second order with a loss, as well as half of my Q400NG), but when done properly, it can be insanely profitable. And many of my customers were not small firms, Some Top 10 players did buy me quite a few birds. If there is no alliance, I'm going to have more customers.....and also more opposition as a broker. It will be less organized, and the big buyers will pay more for their used planes - but also make more money as brokers, so the end difference will be negligible.

[JumboShrimp]

It was 5 yrs ago last for one MT game world only.
Good memory, Jumbomouse.

Hey there Vito.  While there was also a JumboMouse, you may be thinking about me.  BTW, first time back to LAX for me (GW1) since our last encounter there.

[Johan87]

limit profits on planes and this problem will be soled too.
even if wild brokers stay they cannot ask 99mln for a plane with 60mln as recomended price,if you make a smaller price limit on it.
Had written this before already gazz0x2z

@Seven. Once again, you are confusing causes. Big alliances(not only elite, btw) are big because they happen to have big players. That's all. Coordination just prevents from attacking each other, but it's a small advantage. I just played a GW3 with bases in KDTW and KJFK(not the smallest airport of the game), and was attacked by none of the big alliance(ATA & Elite). I was still attacked by excellent players, who were either intependent, or members of smaller alliances.

Big juicy bases will be occupied by excellent players, and average players will be wiped out from them. While they can survive in smaller airbases(my first 2 GW3s were with HQs in Glasgow & Edinburgh, places small enough to have survival hopes, and my biggest base was Warszawa).

For the plane availability : If you stick to popular not-brand-new fleet groups, you'll have easy birds on the UM for your needs. And if there is no alliance, demand on the UM will be even stronger, and wild brokers as I was in last GW3 will be in even bigger numbers. What is a wild broker? Someone with enough cash to buy 40 A321neo (s)he does not need, and put them on the used market to make profit. It's a risky job(I sold the last ones of my second order with a loss, as well as half of my Q400NG), but when done properly, it can be insanely profitable. And many of my customers were not small firms, Some Top 10 players did buy me quite a few birds. If there is no alliance, I'm going to have more customers.....and also more opposition as a broker. It will be less organized, and the big buyers will pay more for their used planes - but also make more money as brokers, so the end difference will be negligible.

[VitoNg]

Hey there Vito.  While there was also a JumboMouse, you may be thinking about me.  BTW, first time back to LAX for me (GW1) since our last encounter there.

Hi Jumboshrimp,

Of course I could think of you  . I think I won't go back to such big base or back to US because too busy IRL. Enjoyed good game in GW#4 based in BKK, I am quite satisfied.
I may join next GW#1 so will see you there.

[gazzz0x2z]

limit profits on planes and this problem will be soled too.
even if wild brokers stay they cannot ask 99mln for a plane with 60mln as recomended price,if you make a smaller price limit on it.
Had written this before already gazz0x2z

Well, if there is not big profit possible, there won't be any interest to be a wild broker. I had to sell several birds at hald their book value, because the market had changed. It was financed by my A321neo bought for 100M and sold at 150M.

One way or another, the UM must be fed. Either you must have a system motivating enough to play the wild broker's game, or you must have a massive increase in AI-brokers investment. Or you'll have players sleeping waiting for their next new plane - which is a good way to make them flee.