The role of an alliance

[ScottPerchard]

Here is a little discussion on the role of alliances

As I understand it alliances in this game really don't do much to your financial scoring but add an extra competitive angle to game through alliance scoring. Fine. They also add the potential to assist one another in the trading/purchasing of aircraft, particularly for larger fleets. Cool.

The game is in essence a financial simulation, you could remove the planes and replace them with buses or boats and you would have the same results.  The aim is to be efficient and provide a profitable service. That give you points that also gives in tour points to your alliance in the grand battle to be the best alliance.  I am being very general here so please excuse the over simplification of things!

One of the contradictions to this I have experienced is the propping up of airlines in alliances through high purchasing of planes.  It has got me thinking about what is the benefit to doing this and I would like to understand why alliances do it with airlines for sustained periods of time? Personally it irritates me a lot to have to do that in my alliance especially as our support comes with 'advice' on how to rectify problems that we 'suggest' the airline takes. It is extra annoying when it happens to a competitor when you have taken great pride in planning there demise only for them to be bailed out. Seems all a bit pointless to me! It's like sneaking up on someone in something like call of duty only for them to run away after you shoot them in the head.

Anyway, your measured and constructive thoughts are appreciated

[MRothschild]

Hello Scott!

I enjoy the commraderie and social aspect.  The advice gifted to me in previous game worlds is invaluable.  I still learn things all the time and particularly enjoy helping others.   

[bdnascar3]

Information is the only true value of an alliance. Especially at the beginning of a world to let you know when planes are available on the um, etc. Advice should always been taken with a grain of salt. Just because player A was successful in XYZ with plane A, doesn't mean you will. Too many variables to say the same thing always happens. But, again, information provided by alliance members CAN be helpful at times. The plane buying thing can be a moot point at times because sometimes there are great deals o the UM, and not being in an alliance means your not restricted on pricing.

My take on alliances is that if you are more interested in winning, than alliances are for you. If you just want to run a successful airline, than they really are not needed.

[ScottPerchard]

My take on alliances is that if you are more interested in winning, than alliances are for you. If you just want to run a successful airline, than they really are not needed.

Totally agree, if you can run an airline you don't need an alliance, you enjoy one.  I get frustrated with those who NEED an alliance.

[[ATA] Hassel]

I will have to disagree with the two above statement

First and foremost this is an online business simulation for multiple players, which brings forward the joy of being able to share and gain experience from other players. The interaction and being part of a team is what keeps me hooked. I've made many good friendships in here and being a solo player, chances are that i would have grown tired of the game long ago. The game attracts fellow minded aviation enthusiast so we have all have something in common to talk about.

Beside from the the social aspect, being in an alliance can benefit your airline in many ways. New players will find comfort from veteran players who knows the ins and out of the game and with the support and help from a team you won't find yourself lost when you first start out in a long game world.

Being in a team can also help you by notifying when new Aircraft is launched, when slot is released or getting in on important production slots

And if you run a larger airline with 500+ aircraft you will be very thankful that you have an alliance who can help and support with a fleet replacement since this will be close to impossible to do solo

I fail see a reason why not to join an alliance - but i guess some people will always be lone wolfs

[ScottPerchard]

I get the aircraft buying thing, I have both provided and received that service and it is most helpful for large airlines. To further the 'Alliance being of help to new players' argument you mentioned, the alliance I co-manage enjoy picking up the newer players or those struggling to understand how to turn a profit.  It is an investment because from those you will get a few more experienced and loyal players.

Anyway, my frustration with the system isn't around the benefits of an alliance but the lack of a penalty for sustaining airlines that fail over the long term. Correct me if I am wrong but you get plenty of points for keeping an airline in the alliance over time but as long as they are doing their checks they could lose money consistently and not lose the alliance points or incur any other penalty. That leads to alliance members bailing them out through inflated aircraft sales as a game tactic.  It just feels like a way of cheating in a game that is in essence a financial simulation and hugely frustrating for those who a in competition with these airlines.

[schro]

There are game rules in place that prohibit the transfer of cash to other airlines through plane laundering. So, if an airline is being mostly propped up by alliance mates with scads of cash, such a practice is generally frowned upon and potentially reportable to the administration. The alliance minimum and maximum pricing also makes plane laundering a bit more difficult. Through observing a number of reports made for such and correlating the actions/responses by the administration, I've surmised the following about the grey areas:

1. Buy-leaseback transactions are generally permitted (even when the airline making the sale is failing).
2. Leaving an alliance to relax the min/max alliance purchasing limits (whether temporarily or until you bankrupt) is consider a rule violation as you are likely still a "defacto" alliance member that's considered to be circumventing plane pricing rules. Basically, if you're buying/selling planes from someone that's normally in your alliance group you should be using alliance min/max as your guideline for pricing regardless of current membership status.
3. Buy-sell transactions of plane types that make no business sense - Let's say you find some really cheap and rusty Russian metal on the market that nobody wants, you buy it, then sell it to someone else (that isn't flying it and has no chance of leasing/selling it) for a tidy profit. You'll generally want the transaction to make some sort of sense for the parties involved to not be suspected of cash transfer.
4. Sell to scrap - Selling your old junk to an alliance member for big cash and they simply scrap the plane upon receipt. Personally, I do not think this should be a permitted practice, however, when I've observed this being reported on numerous occasions, the administration reply made it appear to be a permissible grey area that could be smacked down at a later point in time. No actions were taken on any of those reports.

[ScottPerchard]

I would suggest that number 4 is the one that frustrates me most!

[jotagrande]

The current Alliance set up is counter-productive to all the measures put in place to stop mega airlines from being achievable. There are many forum topics over the years discussing the problems with mega airlines and the various measures put in place to stop growth of behemoths.

Yet there is this Alliance scheme, which the only real benefit is to allow cashed up airlines to help each other out with quicker fleet changes, making life very challenging for smaller airlines or people who are just trying to run a viable airline...not out to win it all.

As far as linking up with like minded aviation nuts..the general forums serve that purpose well. So to with new or newish players getting vital tactical and functionality tips as the very experienced players are very helpful in the general forums answering peoples' questions, no matter how obvious the answers may seem.

If this game is all about winning then the Alliance scheme is good for that and only that. If the game is about being involved, about simply competing in a genre of business simulation that we are all obviously nuts about (commercial aviation) then the Alliance scheme is a detriment.

Now if the alliances really meant something, like inter-line services, connecting flights, code-sharing and so on, that would add another facet to the game which makes it more aviation oriented, less like a game that could be replaced with ships, toasters or widgets. Otherwise this scheme is simply a way for the big guys to stay on top.

I'd really like to see one of these long game worlds with Alliances disabled. It'd require a change in tactics, a fresh approach and not just a repeat of game worlds past, again, and again and again.

[tdf42]

I truly enjoy playing the game and until now my goal has been to be the highest rated airline with under 200 planes since it is so hard to build up to mega status. I am in my second long term game and I did not know that "cashed up" airlines use alliances for fleet replacement which I find disappointing. If that is so I wholeheartedly  agree with you on striking alliances down at least in one long term game and see what strategies evolve.

[[ATA] Hassel]

The current Alliance set up is counter-productive to all the measures put in place to stop mega airlines from being achievable. There are many forum topics over the years discussing the problems with mega airlines and the various measures put in place to stop growth of behemoths.

Yet there is this Alliance scheme, which the only real benefit is to allow cashed up airlines to help each other out with quicker fleet changes, making life very challenging for smaller airlines or people who are just trying to run a viable airline...not out to win it all.

You don't need be a large airline to be part of an alliance... Any alliance will accept new members, large or small, new and old.

In terms of running a mega fleet. You don't need to be in alliance to grow large. You need coordination with people you trust and who trust you, but chances are best you will this within your own alliance.

As far as linking up with like minded aviation nuts..the general forums serve that purpose well. So to with new or newish players getting vital tactical and functionality tips as the very experienced players are very helpful in the general forums answering peoples' questions, no matter how obvious the answers may seem.

i don't know what experience you have of being in an alliance, but in our alliance most of our members are connected through a 3rd party social media where we talk everyday and some of us meet up in real life too, I've meet people i AWS have come known for years . I highly doubt i would have connected on the same level through the general forum...

If this game is all about winning then the Alliance scheme is good for that and only that. If the game is about being involved, about simply competing in a genre of business simulation that we are all obviously nuts about (commercial aviation) then the Alliance scheme is a detriment.

Having alliance brings forward competitiveness, that is clear, but if you read my earlier post you will see that there is much more to an alliance than just competition. And please remember that you don't need to run a mega airline to add points to the alliance score, an airline flying 50 props can just as well contribute the same amount of points as one running 800 planes

Now if the alliances really meant something, like inter-line services, connecting flights, code-sharing and so on, that would add another facet to the game which makes it more aviation oriented, less like a game that could be replaced with ships, toasters or widgets. Otherwise this scheme is simply a way for the big guys to stay on top.

This is a features many of us hopes to be implemented in the future

I'd really like to see one of these long game worlds with Alliances disabled. It'd require a change in tactics, a fresh approach and not just a repeat of game worlds past, again, and again and again.

If a game world would exist without Alliance, it wouldn't stop people buying planes from other players - as a matter of fact you would even be able to purchase planes cheaper from other players

You points towards alliances being detriment is flawed -

Should you want to experience how we do it, i will be happy to extend an invitation to you. Please send me a PM if you are playing gw 2,3 or 4 and i will see too that you have a good time with us

[gazzz0x2z]

In addition to what Hassel says, I'd like to point out that I was able to find 210 airplanes on the used in 24 months for a quick fleet replacement(new planes were opening new routes at the same time). OK, the target group was the B737NG, not the less common in 2018, but I didn't even call my alliance for that. They were more useful when I needed A148, though, those less popular babies are tough to find.

So, if you decide to play the lone wolf : stick to popular-but-not-brand-new models, and you should be able to build a massive fleet. Depending on your market and the era, B737 of various kinds, F100 after the initial rush, A310 should be easy to find in big numbers. So, it's possible to play a 600/800 airplanes company, if you limit yourself to obvious fleet choices, by being a pure lone wolf, and hunting for the UM. Of course, no Concorde, Baade, A380 or A148 in that case. But standards should be more than enough.

Alliances are helpful in the sense that they allow better planification. If I need 13 A148B with a 65-4 config, 22 A148A with 70-0 config, and 2 A148E with the similar config, I can get exactly what I want through my alliance. It's never that as accurate with the UM - unless you stick to single model kickass fleet groups, as the S2000 or the Q400. But it's perfectly playable, you just have to adapt your plans to the aircraft you find, rather than adapting the aircraft you order to your plans.

[jotagrande]

You don't need be a large airline to be part of an alliance... Any alliance will accept new members, large or small, new and old.

In terms of running a mega fleet. You don't need to be in alliance to grow large. You need coordination with people you trust and who trust you, but chances are best you will this within your own alliance.

i don't know what experience you have of being in an alliance, but in our alliance most of our members are connected through a 3rd party social media where we talk everyday and some of us meet up in real life too, I've meet people i AWS have come known for years . I highly doubt i would have connected on the same level through the general forum...

Having alliance brings forward competitiveness, that is clear, but if you read my earlier post you will see that there is much more to an alliance than just competition. And please remember that you don't need to run a mega airline to add points to the alliance score, an airline flying 50 props can just as well contribute the same amount of points as one running 800 planes

This is a features many of us hopes to be implemented in the future

If a game world would exist without Alliance, it wouldn't stop people buying planes from other players - as a matter of fact you would even be able to purchase planes cheaper from other players

You points towards alliances being detriment is flawed -

Should you want to experience how we do it, i will be happy to extend an invitation to you. Please send me a PM if you are playing gw 2,3 or 4 and i will see too that you have a good time with us

Never said one has to be a mega airline to be part of an alliance. I'm well aware most alliances take big, medium, small airlines.

Never said one can't build a mega airline without being in an alliance. It just takes a different tactic than what currently goes on in every game world with alliances enabled.

One can connect with people through the general forum if one tries, one doesn't need special communication methods. Reach out to people...they will answer.

I'm well aware that all airlines, big, medium, small will add to alliance score.

New features take a long time to implement. If Sami could afford outside help to develop...

Never said a game world without alliances would prevent players buying from others. There's a used aircraft market where people sell airplanes. I know one can buy planes cheaper from non-alliance players. But of course people who have been playing for years have build relationships with people so if alliances are disabled they'd likely still work with their long-time alliance friends...I guess some wolves just can't survive without their pack.

Your carefully made,  point by point response to my opinion of how alliances are a detriment to the game completely missed the point I was trying to make... that alliances mostly help the big airline players stay big, all the time, every game and there have been many measures put in place to stop that. That's a fact. In my opinion, the alliance scheme in its current form counter-acts those measures. All of the other benefits of alliances are available elsewhere on the site. You don't need to be part of a gang to access them.

I'd just like to see what a game world would be like if everybody was a lone wolf. I'd also like to see a different game dynamic, where one airline can link up with another in a tangible way, such as code-sharing. Many times I've seen other airlines working in my region and wanted to connect with them, rather than kill them. For example, if they were running a small commuter airline to have them act as a feeder for my larger airline where we both receive a tangible benefit, financial and LF,  perhaps to take on a mega airline in the region. That's what I call an alliance. However, in order to survive in the markets I like to play I have to keep loading on the flights, doing my best to kill off all competition, lest I be killed myself by the bigger beast.

But like I said above, those who have been playing for years and been in the same alliance for years will still work with their friends, so maybe my point is moot. I suppose the people who have been playing it for years have spent lots of money on this game so can have it their way. Perhaps if newer people were allowed to state their experiences, the new player retention would be better, more money rolls in, more money can be spent on developing those long awaited changes. And to look at the responses to this thread, you see myself and tdf42 who are both in our second long GW, not out to win it all, just want to run a viable airline, trying to state our opinion. Then we get some experienced folk who just want to tell us how we are wrong in our way of thinking.

I've had good experience with alliances, good people, but prefer to stay away from them as I want to see how well I can survive on my own, knowing that I'm not really on my own, I'm part of a community who plays this game and get lots of help through forum information and the UM, to mention only two. I got very tired of playing other sims against terrible AI and wanted something that has real people controlling the other airlines.

I keep wanting to believe that this is an Airline Simulation, but its not. Its a game that needs to be played the "right" way in order to be successful. And the goal is, as the site landing page asks,  "can you be the best CEO?", so I guess I've got nothing to complain about.