Too Many Airlines

[charger27]

Why did the admins open game 3 up to 375 airlines?
What was wrong with 350?

Now there are too many airlines, with idiots driving the route prices into the toilets because the lanes are so over-serviced.
I have gone from a very profitable airline (turn off the computer for half a day, and come back to a few million extra dollars) to not being able to turn a buck because of the overcrowding.

I spent the afternoon yesterday searching for new routes... not many to be had.
I guess I'll just let things go - no point worrying about it now.

[Kontio]

I just spent ten minutes looking for routes from PHX in game #3 and found dozens with some unsatisfied demand and even some with no competition. You can't be serious about those 25 extra players ruining your game?

[Sami]

The design limit is 500 players, FYI..

And I do not see any problems there. It's not a problem at all in going to a bit smaller airport and operating from there. Basing for example to Amsterdam or Paris with 20 other airlines is not very smart on the other hand.

[charger27]

I just spent ten minutes looking for routes from PHX in game #3 and found dozens with some unsatisfied demand and even some with no competition. You can't be serious about those 25 extra players ruining your game?

Your idea of unsatisfied demand and mine are different.
Just because there are 100 people available, doesn't mean that fills a 757 or 767.
Also, I want waypoint routes to maximize the day - not 1000 mile to's and from's which don't pay worth anything.
I have spent most days conceding routes and opening new ones.

You don't think 25 people make a difference?
25 x an average of even 10 planes = a significant difference... and that is saying each will only have 10 planes which is inaccurate.
The game is oversaturated... with many dropping prices to uncompetitive levels.
Especially the "new guys", most of whom start out with ridiculous prices to shoehorn their way into service lanes.

Has it ruined my game?
I wouldn't say that - but my expansion is definitely capped while I play defence every day... and that becomes pretty monotonous, and quite frankly not much fun and incentive to put the time in.
Hey, when it becomes more like a job - thanks, but I've already got one that actually pays.

[Kontio]

What can I say to that? Maybe a premium server with a very limited number of players for those who feel that the smallest aircraft they can use is a 757?

[blair21088]

PhX belongs to you, high dessert air, and me. I don't know what high desert air is doing, but I'm making healthy profits on all my routes.

[charger27]

What can I say to that? Maybe a premium server with a very limited number of players for those who feel that the smallest aircraft they can use is a 757?

I started with the plan of LIMITED aircraft types with LIMITED engine models to keep the commonality factor from biting me in the butt... again.
The 757 was a great anchor aircraft for me, and allowed me to expand quickly and capitalize on profitable routes in North America... covering virtually the entire continent in the process.
What I found in a previous game is the 737 soon was too small, and left alot of revenue behind.
The 767 was a good followup airliner which let me "fill in the blanks" where the limitations of the 757 were evident... and also factored into the intercontinental expansion.
Those two models were chosen because of the availability of the same engines with both.

So now, at this stage of the game - what, you suggest I dump my planes and go to DC9's?
Heck, why not a fleet of Dash 8 turboprops!
The idea is to get bigger, not smaller... adding a new regional jet type (and new engine model) so I can fly to Sioux City, IA is hardly a step forward.

The point I was trying to make is I notice with the increase in players, there are more people doing really dumb things with rates.
These individuals will never convince me they are making a dime on those routes either.
Also - I have seen newcomers jump into the lanes where the "big guys" immediately dump prices to hold their numbers... which takes the rest of us with them to a degree.

Bottom line - I have a job and a life, I can't spend hours a day running a fake airline.
It is irritating to leave the site with everything going reasonably well, only to return a few hours later to find yourself down several million from the last check - and routes sabotaged so badly, you have to immediately concede them and go fishing for new territory in order to survive... you have no time to manage trends or use any business experience, it's right now - make a move.

[charger27]

PhX belongs to you, high dessert air, and me. I don't know what high desert air is doing, but I'm making healthy profits on all my routes.

Out of Phoenix isn't bad at all.
It's the second leg routes across the country or intercontinental that get hammered.
And unfortunately, that's where the big money is.

[Kontio]

Let me get this straight. Your strategy is to fly out of one of the busiest airports in the US with second leg routes cross-country or intercontinental (no doubt between some of the busiest airports in the world)? And you are shocked that you are facing competition? And there are routes available from your hub but they are not worth your while because you would have to use jets that carry only about 100 people? And because of this it is the game that should change instead of you?

[blair21088]

You might consider sending your second legs all too one busy airport, creating a second hub of sorts. This seems to have worked very well for Millennium. International long haul flights are hard to pull of from PHX, especially without a profitable and well established domestic network to help cover any losses or poor performing routes. maybe you should focus on expanding your domestic routes more then try to do international again?

[charger27]

Let me get this straight. Your strategy is to fly out of one of the busiest airports in the US with second leg routes cross-country or intercontinental (no doubt between some of the busiest airports in the world)? And you are shocked that you are facing competition? And there are routes available from your hub but they are not worth your while because you would have to use jets that carry only about 100 people? And because of this it is the game that should change instead of you?

When I did the route surveys, I actually stayed away from the busiest airports, unless there was a deficiency on a specific route for whatever reason.
Mostly I launch from secondary airports that, up until recently, were cranking out the numbers for me.
Even in the beginning, I went for the Charlotte's of North America rather than the Atlanta's.

I'm only telling you what I have noticed and tracked recently... new airlines jumping into routes, and the prices plummeting within a few days of their arrival.
You tell me what's happening if I am wrong in my assessment.
I don't think I ever suggested the game should change... I questioned the extra people allowed into game 3.

Hey, I'm open to suggestions... maybe I have to take a second look at regional service.
What I found before, is it takes roughly 3 "small" planes to come close to what 1 of my current aircraft is clearing now.
When you're up against turning over planes due to age and such (and operating with reduced profits) - introducing a whole new philosophy is easier said than done.

[Kontio]

Hey, I'm open to suggestions... maybe I have to take a second look at regional service.
What I found before, is it takes roughly 3 "small" planes to come close to what 1 of my current aircraft is clearing now.
When you're up against turning over planes due to age and such (and operating with reduced profits) - introducing a whole new philosophy is easier said than done.

If I were you I would consider regional service. Works for me is all I can say. (60 Avro RJ-100s and counting, but of course I have bigger jets too.)

[charger27]

You might consider sending your second legs all too one busy airport, creating a second hub of sorts. This seems to have worked very well for Millennium. International long haul flights are hard to pull of from PHX, especially without a profitable and well established domestic network to help cover any losses or poor performing routes. maybe you should focus on expanding your domestic routes more then try to do international again?

I don't launch any international direct from Phoenix.
I tried to grab a market share at one each of an East and West coast airport for trans-ocean... but I found it more profitable to cherry pick various routes from secondary airports.
For example - San Francisco rather than LAX.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like the whole scenario is coming apart - but when a route can go from 92.5% one day to 42.5% the next (then stay there)... and you see some newly formed bandit carrier has moved in - it's pretty easy to tell what has occurred.
I have "stuck it out" for a bit on some of these routes after they have gone sideways, dropping prices and running route campaigns until the numbers recover... frequently the newly accepted prices are to cheap to continue the lanes effectively.
That isn't a price war, it's plain insanity - because the new airline isn't making a dime on the route either, all they have done is basically close the route off.

These situations seem to coincide with the extra players added - was my original point, and my observation.
The only conclusion I can draw from that is 350 is the fine-line before saturation.
500? I would wonder how that will work.

[charger27]

If I were you I would consider regional service. Works for me is all I can say. (60 Avro RJ-100s and counting, but of course I have bigger jets too.)

Already looking at it. 
Might try a bird or two, we'll see.

I am also considering pulling some of my 67's back into domestic service as well.
The international stuff seems to be the most volatile price-wise.

[pharmy]

I have about 150 MD80s and I am flying from Linate, about 30 percent of my routes are Linate, the rest are empty first leg, and then onwards from Nice, Venice, Rome, Geneva, Torino. I found plenty of unsaturated routes for 100-155 pax planes in game one to start growing, and can still find some. Even though there were 8 airlines in Italy b4 me, I had plenty of room to grow. Now I am starting to step on peoples toes (I do like lucrative London routes for example), and sometimes receiving harsh private msgs. I never thought this was a sandbox game, but I might be wrong. More airlines is what I say, there should be more cutthroat competition. By the way its amazing that at around 80% of recommended route prices and with low route image, I am stealing people away from established players (and profitably at that)

Kudos to Interconnect in game 3, who tongue in cheek announced that due to some sheiks birthday all routes in which Pharmdubaiyet flies on, will be discounted due to that joyous occasion. He won our battle, and bankrupted me, but hey thats how it goes.

[charger27]

I have about 150 MD80s and I am flying from Linate, about 30 percent of my routes are Linate, the rest are empty first leg, and then onwards from Nice, Venice, Rome, Geneva, Torino. I found plenty of unsaturated routes for 100-155 pax planes in game one to start growing, and can still find some. Even though there were 8 airlines in Italy b4 me, I had plenty of room to grow. Now I am starting to step on peoples toes (I do like lucrative London routes for example), and sometimes receiving harsh private msgs. I never thought this was a sandbox game, but I might be wrong. More airlines is what I say, there should be more cutthroat competition. By the way its amazing that at around 80% of recommended route prices and with low route image, I am stealing people away from established players (and profitably at that)
Kudos to Interconnect in game 3, who tongue in cheek announced that due to some sheiks birthday all routes in which Pharmdubaiyet flies on, will be discounted due to that joyous occasion. He won our battle, and bankrupted me, but hey thats how it goes.

Understand though, it is considerably shorter distances between better populated areas in Europe.
In North America, the range of the regional airliner is sometimes more crucial than the pax volume.
But that is a pretty impressive number of MD80's you have.
I'm not to the point I can imagine 150 of anything!

[pharmy]

Correction

McDonnell Douglas      
McDonnell Douglas MD-80
Number of aircraft in fleet    161

I started this airline in less then three game years, and carried more then 2mil pax in the last 4 weeks. Fleet commonality is very important (my staff training costs are tiny)

Actually range is pretty decent, only later 737s and A319s beat them. in 155pax config you get 2500 miles, in 94 pax config 2800 miles. So if you do two legged routes, you still get 5000 miles. I will fly at a rate of 1 to 3, that is 1 mile empty to secondary hub for every 3 miles full onwards. MD 83 by the way

[ProudPilotUND]

Ok, Here's the deal, there is a problem with the game. After you hit about 200 airlines, there is obviously going to be a monopoly on some routes for a simple fact. You need a big airplane to fly long routes, but sometimes the demand isn't there for 1 flight a day. Example: Baltimore to London, not a lot of demand alone. Hagerstown, Philadelphia, Richmond, Norfolk, Charleston, and about 20 other towns, to Baltimore, then to London, maybe an extra 30 people per day demand. We're talking about transiting passengers. In the small towns they might each have 2 or 3 people that want to go to London. There's no way you can operate a 777 for 3 people, but you can collect them in a hub then move the aircraft out.

We're still on this problem of point to point. If we stay there, we will always have those who got the routes first, and those who joined late. Which means being an MVP isn't because of strategy with routes and aircraft, it's with getting the most planes to keep the most routes.