AWS v.1.1 talk

[Sami]

Sigh .. Try it first, complain then, okay. Sorry, too tired to explain/argue this.

And I did not say that you MUST have the higher class seat if you have a longer flight (like 5h). I said that you should have it to get the max benefit, or other way around, have it to not lose some pax'es because of that.

The longer the flight is and the worse the seat is the less attractive it will be. And when it passes certain flight time mark the attractiveness will drop faster.


And all aircraft are not configured in premium seats. Read my prevous message.

[swiftus27]

Here is what I am hoping that Sami meant:

1.  Airlines who use/used dense seating on everything will have more of a penalty.
2.  Pax will prefer to use higher seating types more on longer flights.  Meaning, there is more of a penalty for dense and standard seating comparted to the higher types.

The problem was that too many people had cattle car planes that didnt fare poorly enough against other planes that had better seating and similar pricing.

See above, exactly what I just said but a tad more eloquently due to more sleep.

[gaffair]

I can remember a similar discussion some months ago, I was the "complaining idiot", 2 days later the game was reset 


We will see how and if it works out. If the outcry happens then, too bad.

So then, if you´ve gathered some rest, please if possible give a bit more detailed description toward what point of duration certain seating qualities start to have a pax-penalty.

Like HD from 0-xx mins , standard from xx-xx mins, and what about premium on short duration. Do you get a pax bonus if you fly prem seats on a 1 hour flight? That would save us all a lot of money on config experiments and headaches...

Besides that, I still think all planes should be delivered in standard configs. If I lease A320 for ORD-DFW I can get flying right away since it´s config is standard. If I lease an A306 I have to pay $1mil+ to reconfigure it to standard (since it´s config is premium) before I can put it on the route. If you don´t see an imbalance in that, I guess you are very tired...

gaffair

[oggie84]

Another point that Gaffair mentioned that hasn't been fully explained is:-

*How can an A330-XXX or any other similar aircraft with 200 odd premium seats (thats the best you'll get by the way) make any sort of profit on a route over 5000NM after all costs etc have been deducted?

Are customers going to pay $XXXX amount more than what they would have usually paid? Because that's what will have to happen so that it actually turns a profit. You'd have to put prices way above the default level and that certainly won't pull the punters in.

[DenisG]

Hi guys.

I think the implementation of a benefit for flying passengers more comfortably is an important addition to the game. In the earlier games, we have seen the effect of seat configurations within the categories become almost irrelevant - so we all stuffed those damn complaining chickens into the steel/composite cages and raped their wallets and told them to be happy. The effect was that competitive moves were limited to price and capacity. By now implementing a benefit to delivering higher comfort, the game has been moved to a level where those 'soft factors' finally matter. It also corresponds strongly with the evolution of the airline industry: Compare flying economy class from Frankfurt to New York in 1990 and in 2000 and in 2009. There are enormous differences, which have made an impact on the key success factors. Personally, I cannot confirm that all American carriers fly the same economy seats on domestic routes, but perhaps others are better informed.

I can understand the thought that this may impact far stronger than we all might anticipate at this point, two hours before the game commences ticking. But Sami has shown again and again that he has that special talent to calibrate those additions in a very intelligent manner. And even if for some reason we may conclude this to be inappropriate during the next days, we can be quite sure that Sami would just quickly make some modifications. But for now, as far as I can see, nobody is flying yet any planes at all and everything about this hence remains speculation.

Denis

[d2031k]

Here's some real life seatmaps for Lufthansa:

Long-haul:

http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_695186.pdf

Short-Haul:

http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_697250.pdf

It will just mean that the profits are a bit tighter.  Many have commented in the past how there needs to be more realism in the game regarding profits and surely this is just part of that?

Dave

[swiftus27]

I can remember a similar discussion some months ago, I was the "complaining idiot", 2 days later the game was reset  


We will see how and if it works out. If the outcry happens then, too bad.

So then, if you´ve gathered some rest, please if possible give a bit more detailed description toward what point of duration certain seating qualities start to have a pax-penalty.

Like HD from 0-xx mins , standard from xx-xx mins, and what about premium on short duration. Do you get a pax bonus if you fly prem seats on a 1 hour flight? That would save us all a lot of money on config experiments and headaches...

Besides that, I still think all planes should be delivered in standard configs. If I lease A320 for ORD-DFW I can get flying right away since it´s config is standard. If I lease an A306 I have to pay $1mil+ to reconfigure it to standard (since it´s config is premium) before I can put it on the route. If you don´t see an imbalance in that, I guess you are very tired...

gaffair

I dont want to be told any of this.  I dont want to have all the exact information.  Learn it on your own.  I don't want all the code so I can quickly exploit it like other people did in previous games.

Also, people made WAY too much money on long haul flights because of this.  I a mglad for the change.

[Sami]

Like HD from 0-xx mins , standard from xx-xx mins, and what about premium on short duration. Do you get a pax bonus if you fly prem seats on a 1 hour flight? That would save us all a lot of money on config experiments and headaches...

Besides that, I still think all planes should be delivered in standard configs. If I lease A320 for ORD-DFW I can get flying right away since it´s config is standard. If I lease an A306 I have to pay $1mil+ to reconfigure it to standard (since it´s config is premium) before I can put it on the route. If you don´t see an imbalance in that, I guess you are very tired...

Sigh. A300 is totally different type of aircraft then A320. I said that already before how the def. configs are chosen but A300 is just there in between as it can be both long range and medium range plane.

And the exact settings of the seat effect will not be available but some rough guidelines are already given, more in manual later on..

[DenisG]

Here's some real life seatmaps for Lufthansa:

Long-haul:

http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_695186.pdf

Short-Haul:

http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_697250.pdf

It will just mean that the profits are a bit tighter.  Many have commented in the past how there needs to be more realism in the game regarding profits and surely this is just part of that?

Dave

As Dave's links show, you may fly absolutely different variants in your routes, which still does not say much about the quality differences within the categories. But remember that Lufthansa has an average load factor of under 70% on long-hauls. This tells us much about the current state of the industry.

Denis

[gaffair]

Ok, fine I´ll just shut up then, eventhough I was just speaking out in the best interest for the game and the players...

I´m quite sure this discussion will gain momentum again once the game starts running. 

[d2031k]

As the seat update was posted with the company image effects, am I correct in thinking that the updates are designed to work in tandem.  

So, for example, a company with a high CI can charge more per seat and thus justify less, but better quality seats?  Similarly, a company with a lower company image will have to pack more seats in, thus reducing seat quality?

This will then hopefully create more realism as premium carriers will be able to take the C and F class pax more easily?  I know this is how its supposed to work in the previous games, but it was less noticeable.

[swiftus27]

Airtran gets people to fly out of KCAK instead of KCLE due to ease of parking and the fact that their 717s all have business class seating.

[DenisG]

Ok, fine I´ll just shut up then, eventhough I was just speaking out in the best interest for the game and the players...

I´m quite sure this discussion will gain momentum again once the game starts running. 

Well, no! Don't shut up. What are we gonna do during those two last hours until the clock starts ticking...?   

[swiftus27]

Denis and I are in 100% agreement here.   

[oggie84]

Airtran gets people to fly out of KCAK instead of KCLE due to ease of parking and the fact that their 717s all have business class seating.

1. We don't have parking facilities in this game  so that's irrelevant.
2. Do they pay more to fly out off KCAK on 717's in all business class seating?

[gaffair]

Well, no! Don't shut up. What are we gonna do during those two last hours until the clock starts ticking...?   

Well, you can wait for the next person to come in here and express his legitimate concerns just to have them overruled by the likes of you 

Denis and I are in 100% agreement here.   

How sweet! 

[swiftus27]

October 1st 2009 returning October 4th 2009.

KCLE ---> KATL  Direct with Continental was $158
KCAK ---> KATL  Direct with Airtran was $158

See below:
http://www.airtran.com/aircraft/boeing_717_seating_configuration.aspx

Also starting at $49, they allow you to upgrade seats.
http://www.airtran.com/business_class.aspx

[d2031k]

Well, you can wait for the next person to come in here and express his legitimate concerns just to have them overruled by the likes of you 

How sweet! 

LOL 

[DenisG]

Well, you can wait for the next person to come in here and express his legitimate concerns just to have them overruled by the likes of you 

How sweet! 

If you want me to take up your argument in order to keep the discussion going for another 2 hours, I will immediately! 

Denis

[oggie84]

October 1st 2009 returning October 4th 2009.

KCLE ---> KATL  Direct with Continental was $158
KCAK ---> KATL  Direct with Airtran was $158

See below:
http://www.airtran.com/aircraft/boeing_717_seating_configuration.aspx

Also starting at $49, they allow you to upgrade seats.
http://www.airtran.com/business_class.aspx

Tell me your not being serious about that example??? That's like 500NM! So what difference does that make whether you fly business or not? It's hardly going to hurt you sitting in a HD seat config aircraft on that short flight.

All Airtran are doing is perfect business sense - being a 'niche' airline in the market to differentiate themselves from their competetitors.

The point being was having 200 odd seats on an aircraft (lets say A330-300) that flys over 5000NM. The customer would need to pay way more for a premium seat than what they had to if they were flying in a standard seat. The default values don't differentiate between these configs so it would be impossible to make a profit without putting prices higher than the default. Even harder if a competitior flys the same route. All we wanted to know was whether the default values have been calculated to be higher than what they were originally in ATB?!