AWS v.1.1 talk

[swiftus27]

Okay,
I want to run an experiment in the ATB-style game and I wanted your

I won't say the name of the city yet, but it is a smaller USA city compared to many of the big international hubs.   In fact, there will be no international travel outside one or two stops in Canada and Mexico.

I want to fly 1 leg routes only. 

I just don't know if I should ask everyone to leave this city (ill say its name later) alone.  In return, I promise to nnot fly two leg routes. 

Thoughts?

[TomarcS]

What does your experiment consist of Swiftus, as one leg routes are primarily the ones that I have flown in the past.

[swiftus27]

I will fly out of KCLE  (Cleveland Hopkins)

It is not a large airport and does not have any of the international routes.  I am hoping that people limit their competition as I will not be taking theirs up from any other airport.

I am trying to measure the profitability of a single route (no bouncing off another or hub).

I have played games where I always do ABCBA routes.   I want to see the difference.

On the other hand, if someone wants to try to "douche" me and fly through KCLE, I reserve my right to retaliate.

[slannoy]

Once you will have expended on all profitable routes (including the 30pax ones) you will have to do again the ABCBA routes. That's the issue of small airports.

[swiftus27]

No, that's part of my experiment.

Always have new airplanes.  Lease all decent used planes.

I want to compare this with the results of previous games where I did the ABCBA routes.

[DenisG]

Interesting experiment, but don't forget that it is difficult to compare, because strategies evaluations depend on the general market condition and competitive movements of the other particiants. E.g., if the availability of your preferred airplanes will be limited due to demand, you will get a different result. Also your demand development may differ enormously. But I like the idea and please let us know your observations and share it with us - I have the same approach as you do normally and will implement it in a new manner, I have not tried yet. So let's see. Sorry, gotta go... F5...

Denis

[swiftus27]

Didnt take long for someone else to start in Cleveland.  I am glad that I opened my mouth.   ANYWHERE in the world and they start there... Seriously!?

[Talentz]

Come down to IAH .. Whos up for the challange? 



Talentz

[swiftus27]

and now I am waiting for 1800 UTC all over again... GRRRRRRR!

[Dasha]

Okay now the game has started there is something that bugs me straight away...


The production line of the A340-300 is closing in 6 months after the game starts... That's a little bit fast in my opinion.
I very much like the new ordering system that is very very nice but why close a production line when no orders come? Specially at the start of the game that is a little fast.

Specially since I'm sure there will be people who WANT the A340 later but can't afford it now..

[swiftus27]

perhaps if there are orders, the line will be extended.

That is something Sami talked about awhile back.  Instead of set dates for open/close they are more static based on demand

[Sami]

Okay now the game has started there is something that bugs me straight away...

The production line of the A340-300 is closing in 6 months after the game starts... That's a little bit fast in my opinion.
I very much like the new ordering system that is very very nice but why close a production line when no orders come? Specially at the start of the game that is a little fast.

The line is closing because the real model has closed in about that time too. If enough orders are received the line will stay open. That works just like inteded.

[Dasha]

Okay if the production stopped around that time it makes sense... not a big fan of Airbusses so I wouldn't know..

Otherwise great job sami on the new version...

[gaffair]

Forgot to mention this before .. but here goes:

    * Improvement: Adjustments to pax calculation.
       
          o Seat config type is now very much more effective. You cannot get a longhauler to work in HD seat config anymore. Generally HD seats work in flights less than 60 mins, and standard seats in ~3 hrs flights max (Y class).

Well, it remains to be seen how "very much more effective" these new seating requirements will turn out to be.

Sure, the way it has been up until now (HD for all) was not very realtistic and also contributed very much to the exaggerated numbers we have seen in the previous games in terms of income and value of certain airlines.
But the way you have outlined the new system seems an extreme step in the opposite direction. I wonder why there could not have been a more subtle attempt to "fix" this problem.

If standard seating will only be usable up to 3 hours, that will be a mayor disadvantage to many people in more remote locations or those who are not centrally located in a certain country/ market. For instance, airlines based on the east or west coast of the US will have to use premium eco seating to most major markets, where as airlines located centrally can do with standard seating???

Please compare to real world environments. Eco seating in the US is the same across all airlines on all flight - be it 45 mins. or 6 hours!

Even worse is was this will mean for long-haul flying. The way you have outlined the system, I understand that you will have to use premium seating in any class on all long-haul flights, to get a good or any LF at all???

If we take a few well known long-haulers and configure them accordingly, this is what we get:

B767-300: 182 seats max in all premium eco.
A330-300: 272 seats max
B747-400: 312 seats max !!! (for that matter, the numbers between the A333-B744 are way off)

These numbers are eco only, and as far from reality as possible. If we start putting in FC and BC it´s almost funny: B744 - 8 FC, 40 BC, 176 EC = 224 Total

So please, share with us the logic behind this idea and how airlines are expected to "work" with above numbers? 

There is no question about the need for a better systems than the one before - but this may well be, at least in theory, a step to far. There are many ideas floating around about this subject, maybe you should reconsider and have an "open" discussion about it.

And if not, then please give a more detailed description about what is possible and what not, in which class on which duration etc... there is no fun in having to try it all out just to know.


gaffair

[Sami]

If standard seating will only be usable up to 3 hours, that will be a mayor disadvantage to many people in more remote locations or those who are not centrally located in a certain country/ market. For instance, airlines based on the east or west coast of the US will have to use premium eco seating to most major markets, where as airlines located centrally can do with standard seating???

Well if you are a passenger and you fly 5 hours or 2 hours to your destination. On which flight you wish to have a better seat. Think about it that way.

The location of your airline is irrelevant there. If you offer bad seats for 10 hour flight and someone comes and offers better seat comfort on same route, he will get the pax - if other variables are the same. If you are flying the route alone, you will lose some pax because of bad comfort. But the effect is not 100% -> 0% in an instant.


And the seat what you see on regular jetliner today in Y class is the Y standard seat, not HD seat, pretty much..

[gaffair]

Well if you are a passenger and you fly 5 hours or 2 hours to your destination. On which flight you wish to have a better seat. Think about it.

nice answer!

The rest of my post is irrelevant I guess. If you show me a real world expample of this "new logic" I´ll shut up or a B744 configured with ~ 250 seats 

I´m just trying to bring to attention and perhaps prevent something like we have seen in the games before.

[gaffair]

And the seat what you see on regular jetliner today in Y class is the Y standard seat, not HD seat, pretty much..

Yes, so why are planes configured in premium configs then? My A306 is configured in premium with 200 seats!  That´s just not realistic...

[Sami]

Yes, so why are planes configured in premium configs then? My A306 is configured in premium with 200 seats!   That´s just not realistic...

What makes you say it is not "realistic"?  That is the default config for the plane assigned by the broker / previous owner. You can change it to whatever you want as you know.

The standard config is either standard-all Y, or for bigger planes premium Y & C. In A300's case though it could have standard-Y & premium-C, but the default configs are quite simple.

[highways1]

Sami, I gotta say I think you've gone a little overboard here. When I fly from the east coast of the US to Los Angeles it is a 5 hour flight, and trust me almost everyone who takes this flight is sitting in standard seating. To me this really only becomes a factor on flights from Europe to Asia or other routes longer than about 4500 NM.

[gaffair]

I don´t get it... sorry

You say that anything over 3 hours needs premium seating in eco. I say that´s not realistic, and I´m sure I not alone in this belief. Then you say todays airlines use standard seating in eco, but continue saying all "larger" planes in AWS will be configured in premium seating in all classes and ppl can change it later on. So why have them configured this way at all???

Why can´t all planes, small or large be delivered with standard seats and the owner can decide to "upgrade" later on?

Whatever, let´s see what happens when ppl will fly their A330´s with under 200 seats and try to make money, especially when oil begins to rise...