Insane Delivery Times

[Stormy86]

Hi All,

A week ago I wrote about this problem and I make the forecast that in 1 or 2 weeks time we would not even be able to have the planes delivered before 2005.

As I predicted, yesterday I found myself in the situation that if I ordered a plane now in 1997 it would not be delivered until the end of 2004. This is completely nonsense. No airlines would survive in the world if they needed to order their planes 7 years in advance.

I didn't receive any answer last time, that's why I'm trying again to raise concerns about this subject. Please let me know at which stage are the plans to ammend this problem as it is getting incredibly boring. For a planes lover it probably is enough, but as a business simulator it deserves some more work on that.

Again, I think the root cause is that it is too easy to grow up your fleet so in 6 years of game we already have airlines with up to 400 planes, which is absolutely nonsense in a 6 year old real airline.

[Sami]

which is absolutely nonsense in a 6 year old real airline.

When saying that do you take into account that there are no airlines or no active air travel routes when the game starts?  Nope ... One problematic issue is that players all do enter into a "ready world" when the game initially starts. Meaning a world with lots of pax demand but nobody serving them - there's really no solution for this (and doesn't need to be either).

And also you didn't specify that which model you were talking about.. Some B737NG's are for example certified in 2000-2001 range (or around there?) although you can order them already now.

[thedr2]

I agree with Stormies main point. I'm supposed to be upgrading my fleet to A320s, the first few orders will arrive roughly 2000/2001, but if I go to order more now and they wont arrive until 2004... I just think "whats the point?"

Something needs to be done about A & B's production queues. Most airlines would be ok with 7 year wait for aircraft (not ideal), but they dont expect their airline to only be operating for another 8, do they? This is a situation, like the one you say about unfilled demand at the start, where realism needs to be traded for common sense.

[swiftus27]

I got to defend Sami here.

These lengthy delivery times are consistent with real life.  My god, look at the A380!!! 

So, do we go for playability or realism?

[Meraki]

These lengthy delivery times are consistent with real life.  My god, look at the A380!!! 

In real life, an airline has the reasonable expectation they'll be operating for longer than 4 more years.

[Talentz]

Hmm .. 

Again, I think the root cause is that it is too easy to grow up your fleet so in 6 years of game we already have airlines with up to 400 planes, which is absolutely nonsense in a 6 year old real airline.

Its not the root cause. The root of the problem is stupidly high pax demand. The reason your able to grow so fast is because of high pax demand. For example: Based here in IAH. Nothing could stop me from ordering, and routing 500 narrowbody aircraft to fly domestic. I can fly to almost every airport listed in the US database. The demand is there. That doesnt include international.. or creating a hub in anther city. 700..800 bet if I really wanted to.. I could push 900 aircraft. Thats just one airline in one major city. Factor in the top 10 US cities...?  Thats close to 1000 aircraft between just 10 airlines. I figure theres about 50 airports around the world that could support mega fleets. 600-900 aircraft..

So your both saying we need more production? lol? 

The reason theres a long back log is because players cant get enough aircraft fast enough to suck up all the demand. There isnt even enough slots at the airports to support mega fleets. By asking to increase production, you'll just come back a month later asking for more slots to support your 500 aircraft fleets.

This is a situation, like the one you say about unfilled demand at the start, where realism needs to be traded for common sense.

Right. The common sense in this tells you that theres too much demand to go around and because of that, you can never have enough aircraft. Simple.

Theres no need to raise production. You'll just make a problem, much worse. If you want to reduce the number of aircraft orders, cut demand. No pax demand = no need for alot of aircraft.



Dan, you saw this in beta2. How many airlines in beta2 had more then 200 aircraft?  No more then 2-3 at a given time. Avg aircraft fleets were 100-150. The system worked fine in most respects. Only during the 1965-1970 time frame was there a problem. Where our longest ranged aircraft was the 707-320B. We didnt have the DC-8 (sami!) so the deliveries were way backed up. Other then that, everything was working well.



Again, unless the demand is reduced, we will always have this problem. 200+ airlines ordering the same aircraft will cause back logs. The high demand causes this. Thats the root of the problem.

In real life, an airline has the reasonable expectation they'll be operating for longer than 4 more years.

True. So by saying this, your not asking to increase production.. you want a longer game. Which is fine. Asking for a longer game is much more reasonable then demanding aircraft production to be raised. Rewriting the aircraft delivery system, ect.

Though, your still going to run into the same problem. Instead of complaining about waiting 4 years.. it'll be waiting 5, 6+ years. What then?



Talentz

[Kastor]

...Then the solution comes from Sami himself. He wrote somewhere, I don't exactly remember in which thread, but he was writing about slot system for a/c delivery.

I think the game is well balanced in terms of available slots and demand. If we cut demand, the game will become boring and even harder. People bankrupt many times, cutting demand will make the game really discouraging. Why ? And what is the purpose of the game ? To have a successful airline with many of planes. How many ? For one 20, for someone else 50, 100, 500.
Now there is space for everyone to be fulfilled as airline CEO. Try to cut the demand and you will see what will happen.

Slots for a/c delivery were mentioned A.F.A.I.R. in context of crazy big orders causing others to wait too long and in result being blocked from obtaining some very well earning aircraft. Slots would also resolve problem of time intervals between receiving aircraft, and finally will bring some relief in time of waiting for new aircraft.

And it is truth that we want longer game. As I mentioned in the buying planes thread, it is pointless to buy aircraft for a few years. 15 years in airline history is nothing. It is not even a full span for one aircraft life.
I would pay 15 or 20 credits for 50% or 100% longer game. 

[highways1]

On a side note, I don't think the demand is too high. Look at which airlines have historically had the biggest fleets, they're US based airlines. There is a lot of demand in the US that at least until recently was not present in other countries and combined with the fact that geographically it is a large country with many airports there is a lot of potential for airlines there. Frankly, I'm surprised more airlines aren't based in the US, you can really make a lot of money and get big quick.

[KTUS2121]

...Then the solution comes from Sami himself. He wrote somewhere, I don't exactly remember in which thread, but he was writing about slot system for a/c delivery.

I think the game is well balanced in terms of available slots and demand. If we cut demand, the game will become boring and even harder. People bankrupt many times, cutting demand will make the game really discouraging. Why ? And what is the purpose of the game ? To have a successful airline with many of planes. How many ? For one 20, for someone else 50, 100, 500.
Now there is space for everyone to be fulfilled as airline CEO. Try to cut the demand and you will see what will happen.

Slots for a/c delivery were mentioned A.F.A.I.R. in context of crazy big orders causing others to wait too long and in result being blocked from obtaining some very well earning aircraft. Slots would also resolve problem of time intervals between receiving aircraft, and finally will bring some relief in time of waiting for new aircraft.

And it is truth that we want longer game. As I mentioned in the buying planes thread, it is pointless to buy aircraft for a few years. 15 years in airline history is nothing. It is not even a full span for one aircraft life.
I would pay 15 or 20 credits for 50% or 100% longer game. 

The game lasts in real-time for almost 3 months and you're saying you want a longer game?  Even if the game were say 30 sim years vs. 15 sim years, I feel like someone like my self who goes to school full time and actually has a life outside of this like most people that play the game(I think) would feel that too much time would elapse in between the 2 or 3 times during the day they might have time to check their progress with the 25 minutes=one sim day rule. 

I would also take it a step further and say that I think the game gets kind of repetitive after a while and doesn't have enough features to keep me entertained for more than a few months.  The game updates might help make things a little more interesting, but at this stage I would prefer to have the current timeframe in place and let a couple of "sim weeks" elapse vs. over a month going by if the number of sim years was doubled, before I have time to login again which would more than likely be the case for someone such as myself who checks it a few times a day at most and occasionally even has to skip a day or two due to real world concerns. I'd imagine most CEO's don't last very long who only check on the operations of their company once a month!

[Stormy86]

Very interesting feedback, guys. I'm happy you have taken this issue seriously this time.

Definitely I don't think it's about reducing demand. And I don't think it's about more production or more slots or anything. Sometimes, playability is not a tradeoff to realism, so we have to ask ourselves: what is not real about this games? The time frame. As someone said, from 1993 to 2005 is a short period compared to other online simulation games that go from 1946 to 2008, for example.

I would not bother a lot if I needed to wait for my planes for 6 or 7 years... if then I have a lot of time to use them and make the investment profitable.

Another solution is to reduce together demand with number of players allowed in the game. That would not make the game more or less difficult but it would reduce the waiting times.

I think within these two options is the one which Sami could think about to make the game more interesting

Hope it helps

[Kastor]

I will repeat that game is pretty well balanced, just missing some real-life features to make the airline management easier and be more interesting over a couple of months, as KTUS2121 pointed out. Then it might get twice this long and that will be great and even more realistic entertainment.
On the other hand, it is different game of those which you sit continously on (unless you have 400 a/c, then it is full time job).
Here you check like a few times a day and that 3 months don't feel so long. Personally I think that 8 years of game #2 which left as of now, is a little time, in which I will hardly manage to exchange my fleet preserving realistic time span for using them - like at least 7 years.