Changes to rules, slot transfers (to discuss)

[Jackson]

I read somewhere that terminals will be something of the future. Is that one of the factors of the "Dynamic Airports" you speak of Sami? I am a big fan of terminals being included and believe that should help alleviate the slot problem at the major hubs. Once a terminal has reached it's max capacity, make good use of what you got in other words unless airlines can force or influence airport growth.

Also, I hope when you speak of "dynamic", we get realistic takeoff and landing slots. Right now I can schedule 10 MD11 heavies to takeoff within 5 minutes. 28 departures an hour capacity is fine but it should be spread out the entire 60 mins and aircraft size should also be a factor in regards to takeoff slot. At LHR in real life, during one of it's peak hours, if you have a backlog of small to medium size a/c only (early mornings and late afternoon) you will have 2 tops taking off in a minute and that's when the ATC has some enter the runway further from the threshold. If it is a mixture of small and heavies or just heavies (late mornings, early afternoon and late evenings) then your looking at one every minute or even one every 90 seconds. Similar with landing.

Jona L.
Whilst I agree that in any good business simulation and RL businesses, giving all the attention it needs does nothing but nourish it more than others with scarce input, having the time to monitor slot releases may not be a luxury for some. Therefor that member is losing out. I check in maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of 24 hrs when Im off work and sometimes once a day if I have commitments. Unless I was able to predict WHEN they were to be released (Maybe notifications can be a short term solution) someone like me would lose out at a LHR type airport.

I don't think slots stealthily being released (without notification to the hub's inhabitants) at random is fair because it means someone who has more time to monitor slots will always prevail. While I believe a bidding type of method will work, Sami will not implement it so no point of me mentioning it again but I'm looking forward to "Dynamic Airports".

[tcrlaf]

The Wright Amendment disagrees with you adding more gates at DAL ;-)

Well, it used to...
Wright Amendment ends in October, and Southwest has already announced 15 new cities from LUV.
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2014/02/end-of-wright-amendment-will-open-up.html

[Curse]

The Wright Amendment disagrees with you adding more gates at DAL ;-)

Haha, your point is good, my fault. I was aiming more for the message of possibilities.

[Zombie Slayer]

The Wright Amendment disagrees with you adding more gates at DAL ;-)

For another few months, then the 5 Party Agreement takes over disagreeing with you  

[tcrlaf]

Right now I can schedule 10 MD11 heavies to takeoff within 5 minutes. 28 departures an hour capacity is fine but it should be spread out the entire 60 mins and aircraft size should also be a factor in regards to takeoff slot. At LHR in real life, during one of it's peak hours, if you have a backlog of small to medium size a/c only (early mornings and late afternoon) you will have 2 tops taking off in a minute and that's when the ATC has some enter the runway further from the threshold. If it is a mixture of small and heavies or just heavies (late mornings, early afternoon and late evenings) then your looking at one every minute or even one every 90 seconds. Similar with landing.

Sami has enough problems, I would assume, without having to adjust for wake turbulence waits, as well.

That Dash-8 taking off behind a DC-10 is a really bad idea, in real life.

To add to your train of thought, should a significant delay factor be added at slotted-out airports, to represent ATC delays due to traffic, as well? Some days at Atlanta, LGA, JFK, O'Hare, or LHR,etc, delays can exceed 50% just based on wind direction and speed, alone...  That can have a significant impact on Company image, too. (I personally avoid Atlanta at all costs, for instance. Too many horror stories.)

[mavi]

Communism is a form of government that dictates central control of all resources. Socialist is the better word to describe it, at least with respect to the rewards that someone can reap now with putting in time, planning and skill to obtain the slots needed to be successful. To make a quota would be handing over the slots that should be "earned" by those who make the effort to those who do not take the effort to plan for slot acquisition.

With regards to slot hoarding, there are very few airports in the world that are severely limited based upon them. In many cases, there are capitalist countries with socialist policies that restrict free competition to the airports. HND comes to mind as one where the government will not allow carriers to compete with the national carriers. I also think it is short sighted to say that airports are not dominated by a single airline in real life. ATL, DFW, DAL, MIA, DTW, SFO, DEN, IAH, etc come to mind in the US, while none of those other than SFO are slot restricted, the incumbent airlines have made it virtually impossible for life as a new entrant. In ATL, Delta hogged all the gates and blocked expansion - southwest had to buy airtran to gain access. Southwest is gate hogging at DAL, AA is driving up costs at MIA for others, etc... You could go on with foreign airports in the same manner...

You are conflating game play and economic arguments.  Slot hoarding is inherently anti-competitive, as it excludes competitors from the market.  A capitalist system seeks to have a free market.  Very few schools of economic thought believe that monopoly is beneficial to the capitalist economy.

Arguing that players who put in the time and effort should get the slots, and that the slot quota system would punish them is a perfectly valid argument.  But it is a game play argument, not an economic one.

[tcrlaf]

For another few months, then the 5 Party Agreement takes over disagreeing with you  

Delta has announced new service at Love, but it is all RJ service to the hubs, with the exception of a single LA turn.

Eagle canceled to RJ's to O'Hare, and with the US Air purchase of American, I doubt they will add anything in the near future, other than maybe LGA with a large contract RJ. (hello Mesa)
Given current economic conditions, other than SWA, you won't see anything other than competitive adds at LUV. (and watch how fast that 20-gate limit goes away, too.)

They have basically locked out any competition, but I give it 5 years before the 5PA goes away.

[Jackson]

Sami has enough problems, I would assume, without having to adjust for wake turbulence waits, as well.

That Dash-8 taking off behind a DC-10 is a really bad idea, in real life.

To add to your train of thought, should a significant delay factor be added at slotted-out airports, to represent ATC delays due to traffic, as well? Some days at Atlanta, LGA, JFK, O'Hare, or LHR,etc, delays can exceed 50% just based on wind direction and speed, alone...  That can have a significant impact on Company image, too. (I personally avoid Atlanta at all costs, for instance. Too many horror stories.)

It's not a delay factor. Nowhere in the world will you find 10 heavies being able to takeoff simultaneously within 5 minutes. I didn't say anything about light aircraft being delayed by wake turbulence. Ofcourse that would be a nice feature (light a/c wake turbulence effect) but do I think it will ever be included in AWS? NO. Not essential.

In 5 minutes, only 4 or 5 heavy departures should be possible.
In 5 minutes, 7 or 8 light and medium sized aircraft. And obviously if you have a mixture of both heavy and light-medium, it will vary somewhere between. Each aircraft size should have their unique takeoff time. And I stated this little idea within the context of "Dynamic Airport" and "Slots".

[Jackson]

My last input to this topic is...

Pre-ordering slots for airport native airlines.

Bidding for airlines who want to fly there.

And

Slots to be allocated 90% to native airlines while 10% goes to other airlines to bid.

With

Non native airlines able to buy and sell from each other. (for instance if a fellow alliance member chooses to be generous, he/she can remove one flight and offer that slot to alliance member)

That way, only the non-indigenous airlines with the means and dedication win their slots to fly to a slot restricted airport.

[Curse]

That'd be much coding time that could go into dynamic based demands and airports.

[tcrlaf]

Per Flightaware, today, 6PMEST:

ZRH Zurich AA 64  
American Airlines 6:00 PM  5:54 PM  T-8
C45  En Route   On-time  763
   
VIE Vienna VO 88  
Tyrolean Airways 6:00 PM  6:25 PM ~  T-1  Scheduled
 On-time  763
   
ATL Atlanta DL 2152  
Delta Air Lines 6:00 PM  6:12 PM ~  T-2  Scheduled
 On-time  M88
   
TLV Tel Aviv-Yafo LY 2  
El Al 6:00 PM  6:13 PM ~  T-4  Scheduled
 On-time  772
   
MXP Milan AA 198  
American Airlines 6:00 PM  6:15 PM ~  T-8
C46  Scheduled
 15 min  763
   
LHR London VS 4  
Virgin Atlantic Airways 6:00 PM  6:29 PM ~  T-4  Scheduled
 On-time  333    
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LAS Las Vegas B6 711  
JetBlue Airways 6:59 PM  7:21 PM ~  T-5  Scheduled
 On-time  320
   
CDG Paris DL 400  
Delta Air Lines 6:59 PM  7:08 PM ~  T-4  Scheduled
 On-time  764
   
PHX Phoenix B6 135  
JetBlue Airways 6:59 PM  7:21 PM ~  T-5  Scheduled
 On-time  320
   
LAX Los Angeles AA 21  
American Airlines 7:00 PM   T-8
B3  Scheduled
762
   
GIG Rio De Janeiro JJ 8079  
TAM Linhas Aereas 7:00 PM  7:22 PM ~  T-8  Scheduled
 On-time  763
   
SFO San Francisco DL 435  
Delta Air Lines 7:00 PM  7:09 PM ~  T-4  Scheduled
 On-time  752
   
SJU San Juan AA 1029  
American Airlines 7:00 PM   T-8
C33  Scheduled
757
   
STI Santiago DL 452  
Delta Air Lines 7:00 PM  7:11 PM ~  T-4  Scheduled
 On-time  73H
   
ORF Norfolk RP 2966  
Chautauqua Airlines 7:00 PM  7:08 PM ~  T-2  Scheduled
 On-time  ERJ
   
ORD Chicago 9E 2928  
Endeavor Air 7:00 PM  7:22 PM ~  T-2  Scheduled
 On-time  CR9
   
DUB Dublin AA 290  
American Airlines 7:05 PM   T-8
C38  Scheduled
757
   
SVO Moscow SU 103    
Aeroflot 7:05 PM  7:35 PM ~  T-1  Scheduled
 On-time  333
   
MAD Madrid AA 94  
American Airlines 7:05 PM   T-8
B1  Scheduled
757
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a quick glance. I'm sure LAX, NRT, or LHR could return similar results.  

[tcrlaf]

Nowhere in the world will you find 10 heavies being able to takeoff simultaneously within 5 minutes.

Sure they can. Memphis, 0410-0415, Every weekday morning just off the top of my head.

[Zombie Slayer]

Delta has announced new service at Love, but it is all RJ service to the hubs, with the exception of a single LA turn.

Eagle canceled to RJ's to O'Hare, and with the US Air purchase of American, I doubt they will add anything in the near future, other than maybe LGA with a large contract RJ. (hello Mesa)
Given current economic conditions, other than SWA, you won't see anything other than competitive adds at LUV. (and watch how fast that 20-gate limit goes away, too.)

They have basically locked out any competition, but I give it 5 years before the 5PA goes away.

The 5PA will go away, but barring a decision by the highest courts the earliest it can be dissolved is 2024. I would expect a fight to get that changed to be launched on or about October 14th this year (the day Wright goes away  )

But, back on topic....

Sure they can. Memphis, 0410-0415, Every weekday morning just off the top of my head.

Exactly. Departure times listed are gate pushes, not wheels up. I think AWS does a good job of mimicking this with limiting the number of departures at 0600, 0605, 0610, etc.

[Jackson]

Exactly. Departure times listed are gate pushes, not wheels up. I think AWS does a good job of mimicking this with limiting the number of departures at 0600, 0605, 0610, etc.

Gate pushes? Oh. I assumed when speaking of airport slots both in the real world and within AWS that we were talking about runway departures (the amount of takeoffs and landings any one particular runway can handle AKA Takeoff and Landing Slots). Had no idea it meant the actual time the plane gets pushed back. Wouldn't that be called Gate Slots? From what I have learnt from my years at Heathrow is planes leave their gates/ramps to get to the runway at their allocated slot times. Hence why some times are much more expensive than others and when a plane is late to the runway or simply misses their departure slot, they are made to wait for planes behind them to takeoff first in order not to cause a knock on delay effect.

And what exactly are you saying "exactly" too?  tcrlaf said within 5 minutes, 10 heavies takeoff from 4:10AM over his head. He didn't say anything about when they leave their gates.

[dmoose42]

As the airline in question in one of the early pictures regarding LHR.  No I do not employ a staff, however, I do have a job that allows me to check slots periodically through the day most of time.  I usually can't spend much time on AWS during the day, but ten seconds to do a slot check every once in a while is easy.  5-10 minutes to add routes (especially if they are preplanned) is doable ever once in a while.  An alliance that helps with slot drops is also a benefit.  This is all well known and anyone can participate in an alliance that fosters such helping arrangements.

I agree with whoever said that most of the proposals are akin to putting a bandaid on top of a bandaid.  The reality is that none of the proposed solutions make the simulation more fun and fair at the same time.  Limit how many planes someone can schedule at once because they can only grab 3 slots?  Great!  Now the person has to spend more time online.  Make the slot costs increase more?  In JA8/GW1, I'm in LHR and I could pay ten times the amount of slots easily.  That doesn't spread the slots more equitably.  The things that will help:  the terminal idea, city based demand, and cargo.  Terminals will allow a player to have a dedicated set of slots that they can use and optimize at their convenience and allow the player the ability to help build the airport and his/her airline.  City based demand will help spread the demand to other cities hopefully 'fixing' the LHR problem.  Cargo may also help as it will make larger frames more profitable relative to smaller frames (i would think).

So to wrap up - while the current system is far from ideal, it affects a limited number of aiports and a lot of the proposed resolutions don't solve a whole lot.  Perhaps we make up a task force to help work out the mechanics of the terminal concept?  As I think that would help a lot and be a lot easier to implement than city-based demand.

[Zombie Slayer]

Gate pushes? Oh. I assumed when speaking of airport slots both in the real world and within AWS that we were talking about runway departures (the amount of takeoffs and landings any one particular runway can handle AKA Takeoff and Landing Slots). Had no idea it meant the actual time the plane gets pushed back. Wouldn't that be called Gate Slots? From what I have learnt from my years at Heathrow is planes leave their gates/ramps to get to the runway at their allocated slot times. Hence why some times are much more expensive than others and when a plane is late to the runway or simply misses their departure slot, they are made to wait for planes behind them to takeoff first in order not to cause a knock on delay effect.

And what exactly are you saying "exactly" too?  tcrlaf said within 5 minutes, 10 heavies takeoff from 4:10AM over his head. He didn't say anything about when they leave their gates.

Slot times, IRL, are actual wheels up times, departure times listed on airline websites or airport departure boards are gate push times. Sorry, the way I worded that got a little confusing. The post by tcrlaf pulls info from flight aware which takes its info from the flight plans as filed by the airlines. The actual slot times the airlines have are likely all in the 1800-1815 time frame so they file to depart at 1800. I am not sure how it works elsewhere, but at the slot controlled airports here in the USA, it is still first come first served, for example ATC is not going to stop a plane with a slot time of 1810 from departing at 1806 if the guys with the 1806, 1807, 1808, and 1809 slots are not ready (just random times, I dont know enough about JFK's slot structure to give exact times, just know that the plane that is ready first goes first to prevent undue congestion.)

[ezzeqiel]

That's a (and in my eyes the only) option to solve the problem without fighting symptons, but by eliminating the cause. This is nothing that can be coded in a day, but Sami, remember when we first talked on IRC years ago and you told me about your vision of AWS... are you really going to invest time to code fire departments instead of letting a few houses burn down and catch the pyromaniac I told as an example before?

tl;dr:
Dynamic City based demand
Dynamic airport growth
Dynamic route growth

I liked your post very much.

Now, If city-based demand would come in a short amount of time, I'd agree with attacking the cause, but basing in the fact that city based demand has been on "development" since 4 years now (according what I read in the forums and you just sayed), I'm gonna go with let's attack the symptoms.

So to wrap up - while the current system is far from ideal, it affects a limited number of aiports and a lot of the proposed resolutions don't solve a whole lot.  Perhaps we make up a task force to help work out the mechanics of the terminal concept?  As I think that would help a lot and be a lot easier to implement than city-based demand.

Terminals would be a very nice option to auction systems.

No I do not employ a staff, however, I do have a job that allows me to check slots periodically through the day most of time.

Yeah, I'm still gonna go with the first option...

[ucfknightryan]

I don't think slots stealthily being released (without notification to the hub's inhabitants) at random is fair because it means someone who has more time to monitor slots will always prevail. While I believe a bidding type of method will work, Sami will not implement it so no point of me mentioning it again but I'm looking forward to "Dynamic Airports".

Slots are stealthily released on a random schedule because when they were on a predictable schedule they would all be gone in less than 30 seconds after a drop to the people with the lowest latency connections to the server, as everyone in the game was sitting there with preplanned routes waiting for the instant slots would drop to rapidly switch tabs hitting create route.  As bad as the issues are now they pale in comparison to the slot situation back then.

[Zombie Slayer]

Yeah, I'm still gonna go with the first option...

Which is what? Guilty (of doing absolutely nothing wrong) until proven innocent?

[ucfknightryan]

Yeah, I'm still gonna go with the first option...

Well I suppose if you choose to create and believe delusional conspiracy theories no one here can stop you....