Showing amount of AC on used market

[wapp11]

What happened to the number that showed how many AC are on the used market? It was right under the call button and now it is missing... at least for me.

[wapp11]

Ok I see in the bug forum that it was removed, but why?

[Sami]

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg194237.html#msg194237

[wapp11]

Thanks...

[MidlandDeltic]

Thanks for the link.  This doesn't explain why the change has been made though.

I used to look at the aircraft available figure, then choose my time to call the market (in Dotm£ usually when the figure in my list had dropped to about 350 or so).  Does this figure now count up without calling the market - ie show the changes since your last call was made?  It appears not to me, unless I'm doing something wrong - when you navigate away from the page then go back, the number is not there at all.  If not, it will result in more wasted calls, and even less chance of finding aircraft.

Can you tell us the logic behind this change please Sami?  Personally,  prefer the old system.

Thanks

[wapp11]

Thanks for the link.  This doesn't explain why the change has been made though.

I used to look at the aircraft available figure, then choose my time to call the market (in Dotm£ usually when the figure in my list had dropped to about 350 or so).  Does this figure now count up without calling the market - ie show the changes since your last call was made?  It appears not to me, unless I'm doing something wrong - when you navigate away from the page then go back, the number is not there at all.  If not, it will result in more wasted calls, and even less chance of finding aircraft.

Can you tell us the logic behind this change please Sami?  Personally,  prefer the old system.

Thanks

Yes I agree... I prefer the old system as well

[Sanabas]

The logic is explained in the post Sami linked to, isn't it?

By listing the total number of planes available, it was still possible to f5 in order to find when the market had been refreshed, and only make your call then.

[MidlandDeltic]

The logic is explained in the post Sami linked to, isn't it?

By listing the total number of planes available, it was still possible to f5 in order to find when the market had been refreshed, and only make your call then.

No - the F5 ONLY reloaded the script.  When you go to the page subsequently, the amount of new aircraft ONLY shows when you renew the market.  If you navigate away, then go back, the figure is no longer there.  Read my post above (or try it yourself!)  Hence you cannot use it as a gauge as to when to refresh the market.

MD

[stevecree]

Sanabas is correct.  The number of a/c available was used to know when an update had taken place.  If you F5'd the used page and say it showed 700 a/c available, the do it again 30 seconds later - still 700, then 30 seconds later still 700, then 30 seconds after that it had dropped to 670 then it was time to call the market as there had been an update !  The drop indicated that many a/c had been removed from the market...which happens at the same time a/c are added.   Infact that little number made it easier to know when an update had happened than it ever has been, and obviously people caught on and we're back to F5'ing all the time waiting for that drop to happen.  The call button was introduced to stop F5'ing, but with that number showing it didn't work....it does now though as there is zero advantage to anybody continually refreshing the used market.  Good move IMO.

[MidlandDeltic]

Sanabas is correct.  The number of a/c available was used to know when an update had taken place.  If you F5'd the used page and say it showed 700 a/c available, the do it again 30 seconds later - still 700, then 30 seconds later still 700, then 30 seconds after that it had dropped to 670 then it was time to call the market as there had been an update !  The drop indicated that many a/c had been removed from the market...which happens at the same time a/c are added.   Infact that little number made it easier to know when an update had happened than it ever has been, and obviously people caught on and we're back to F5'ing all the time waiting for that drop to happen.  The call button was introduced to stop F5'ing, but with that number showing it didn't work....it does now though as there is zero advantage to anybody continually refreshing the used market.  Good move IMO.

OK -I thought Sanabas was referring to the new system, my mistake.  We are in agreement n trhe workings.  However, I do not agree it is a better system.

If you have no idea when the market has refreshed, then it is impossible to get aircraft to match your current fleet, and respond to competitive attackes by larger players, who have built up the means to purchase new.   As it stands, stagnation is the only option, and losing market share to the big players from the top 20 hubs.  Smaller players cannot buy new, profitable aircraft as the production slots are filled up for 5 years or more into the future.  The ONLY way you can expand is if alliances start selling aircraft internally via notification to each other - and we know where those tactics have ended up in the past.

Airlines need some indication of when aircraft are available.

MD

[Sanabas]

I don't think impossible means what you think it means.

You've already got some indication of when aircraft are available. New aircraft are made available multiple times every game week. The average time between new aircraft becoming available is under a RL hour. You've got 7 calls every 4 RL hours. That's plenty of info. Smaller airlines, newer players, all now have about the same chance to get planes from the used market. Popular planes will stay on the market longer. Whereas before this minor change, it was much harder for someone to get planes on the used market, because as soon as the market refreshed, multiple airlines just happened to all call the market then, and grab the popular stuff that had appeared. If you don't call within maybe 5 RL minutes, you miss out. If you don't exploit the loophole, your odds of calling in that 5 minute period are maybe 10%. If you do exploit the loophole, your odds of calling in that period are 100%, and you'll almost never run out of calls or miss a market refresh. Result is that a month or two into DotM, one player has only seen a single DC10 in the market, while another player has leased half a dozen or more.

It is now EASIER to expand via the used market for most people. It is only harder to expand now if you were previously exploiting this loophole to work out exactly when to make your calls.

[MidlandDeltic]

I know exactly what impossible means - I am a native English speaker.  In the last two game weeks I have tried to call the market once each game day.  7 of those resulted in no new aircraft; another 4 had less than 10 - none of which were suitable for my airline.  Seven of those calls were therefore wasted. 

I was not previously F5ing - I would visit the used page as part of normal play, and place a call if the number on my list was below 370 or so - meaning all calls to the used market were reasonable.

I still think this will encourage alliances to sell within themselves, and thus further strangle the development of airlines from smaller hubs who cannot order 50 new 737s years in advance and have to rely on the second hand market.

MD

[Sanabas]

If you have no idea when the market has refreshed, then it is impossible to get aircraft to match your current fleet,

I know exactly what impossible means

So when you say it's now impossible to get the planes you want from the used market, what do you actually mean?

In the last two game weeks I have tried to call the market once each game day.  7 of those resulted in no new aircraft; another 4 had less than 10 - none of which were suitable for my airline.  Seven of those calls were therefore wasted.  

Sounds reasonable to me to only have half (or less) of your calls be productive. You can get a maximum of 3 planes every 8 days. You can average 8 calls every 8 days. So even if you find a plane you want only 40% of the time, you've got enough opportunity to get used planes at the maximum rate available.

I'm a little skeptical that 11 out of 14 calls produced less than 10 new planes. That suggests the market refreshed a maximum of 6 times in 2 weeks, and that's if we assume it refreshed twice between calls on those other 3. The cycling of unpopular planes means I'm yet to see less than 30 new planes if the market has refreshed, even if the popular planes from that refresh are already gone. Less than 10 new planes will almost certainly be user owned planes being listed.

*edit*In fact, I just refreshed the market in MT6 after posting this. Market had updated, but every airbus, every 737-3/4/5, every 767, was already gone. For planes bigger than 100 seats, there was 1 757, 1 MD 11, 2 DC-9s, 1 737-200 and various unpopular planes. There were still 96 new planes for me to see. I'd be amazed if 86+ of those new planes were grabbed before the next market refresh.