Long Haul (again)

[Jona L.]

Hello community, hello Sami!

I would like to bring up an old topic again about LongHaul.
There was some whining from defenders of the either sides about this a while ago. I don't want to start this whining again, nor do I want to blame anyone.

IIRC after the long discussions, you, sami, have tweaked the C and F class incomes and LH income especially. You cut it down a "bit", which was a pretty lot too much.

To go back to beginnings: The discussions were started when someone complained that LH airlines were making too much cash and could grow too fast. This in the end led to the tweak named above.

After a couple of games since then I now come to the substantiated point that this tweak was definitely too much.
Talking about MT#5 I must say that with current fuel prices (>$900) it is hardly possible to run on LH business. I have a fleet of >500 a/c with only 50 SH aircraft and only 3 fleet Types in total (777; A330/340; B737NG) and make losses in a high million Range (­around -$30M/week). Most of that caused by fuel cost. These went up (understandably) from ~$600-650 first to ~$800 lowering my income from +$100M to ~$20-30M and then jumped to ~$950 cutting my remaining income to this high loss.

Having read the story, I now ask you all: Can this be a fair tweak if a Long Haul Airlines (not even touching +6500NM routes!!) makes these high losses while Short Haul airlines still make much cash? Can it be fair that because someone couldn't grow fast enough the others have to swallow such a tweak? Can it be fair, that an airline operating tightly scheduled aircraft on decent routes makes losses because someone not knowing that part of business thinks it is too much?

My answer is NO! I think it is not fair towards airlines that operate flights across the Atlantic make these losses while the 3 aircraft-regio airline is still operating at a great plus.
- Don't get me wrong here though, I don't want to say that SH airlines shall not make as much cash as they do now. But I wish for the old price-calculating system to be returned as that seems more fair in my eyes.-

Despite that, for the shouters that demanded more growth control we have a 50% reduction of deliveries from used market, we have highly increased slot cost in big airports and magic carpets are history since v1.1. So I think we don't need this income-cut anymore to control growth as there are more and more effective other control systems now.


Thanks for reading and sharing your opinions,
Jona L.

[Jona L.]

P.S.

For swiftus: You were asking for a lowered LH income and afterwards you complained that 777 was broken for Trans Atlantic flights.... rethink please, on which side you actually stand

[JumboShrimp]

I agree that the reduction was bit much.

3000-5000nm was very profitable, and can still be profitable.

> 5000nm was barely profitable 1.2.  It is worse in 1.3.

[swiftus27]

P.S.

For swiftus: You were asking for a lowered LH income and afterwards you complained that 777 was broken for Trans Atlantic flights.... rethink please, on which side you actually stand

Since I am being called out...  you said that 777s weren't broken and called into question my ability to play the sim.   If i wasnt in the car, id list the myriad of posts you put on here.  additionally, i asked for you to post the data so i could have included with my trial run.  You refused.  Honestly, you are trolling here and am not going to play into your games.

I asked for there to be less revenue from those flights comparatively to sh.   You keep infferring that I meant less income overall.  They are not one and the same.  Sami swung the pendulum too far lowering the

Also they're broken because a 777 always loses to other smaller planes in frequency.  Without cargo income the 777 has no chance.  

Something had to be done concerning lh income.  Anyone here during the Magic Carpet era would understand why.  He would have a billion dollar airline within one year or so.

If this is your way of saying that I am right, just eat your crow and say you were wrong.  Don't sit here and ty to make me out to be the villain here.  I find your methods to be confrontational and not for the betterment of this community.

[Jona L.]

Since I am being called out...  you said that 777s weren't broken and called into question my ability to play the sim.   If i wasnt in the car, id list the myriad of posts you put on here.  additionally, i asked for you to post the data so i could have included with my trial run.  You refused.  Honestly, you are trolling here and am not going to play into your games.

I said so because they aren't. They are just not as competitive as smaller planes (like A332/3). I have run the effectively at 65% LFs, but thanks to 772 and A333 the LFs went into the 40ies leading to actually any aircraft making losses.

I asked for there to be less revenue from those flights comparatively to sh.   You keep infferring that I meant less income overall.  They are not one and the same.  Sami swung the pendulum too far lowering the

Please explain to me what is the difference between lower LH income compared to SH and lower LH income overall... I don't see a difference, but am eager to learn it.

And yes, he did, and that is why I opened this topic again.

Also they're broken because a 777 always loses to other smaller planes in frequency.  Without cargo income the 777 has no chance.  

Well, since we don't have cargo (yet) this is (yet) no solution, thus I call back the older pricing system.

Something had to be done concerning lh income.  Anyone here during the Magic Carpet era would understand why.  He would have a billion dollar airline within one year or so.

If I may ask you to read this again:

Despite that, for the shouters that demanded more growth control we have a 50% reduction of deliveries from used market, we have highly increased slot cost in big airports and magic carpets are history since v1.1. So I think we don't need this income-cut anymore to control growth as there are more and more effective other control systems now.

Where I said already that, as Magic Carpets are history since 2 versions by now, this income cut is pretty outdated.

If this is your way of saying that I am right, just eat your crow and say you were wrong.  Don't sit here and ty to make me out to be the villain here.

I take back the "incapability" half. The part I don't take back is that you didn't manage to get them perfectly running (not saying you weren't good) as they killed you on $700 fuel prices while I made it at least to $900. Anyhow I take back the part of saying they aren't broken. I see you point now. And I see it clearly (in the red numbers I see on my Dashboard).

So, yes, John, you were right.


Cheers,
Jona L.

P.S. as you said you are in car: Better concentrate on the road then, mate, make sure you don't crash or get stopped by police.

[Ansettaddict123]

i've never played during this "magic carpet" era, with either a SH or LH airline so cant comment on how pricing has changed.
Past games I have played with a substantial SH and minimal LH network, yet have gone for more of a balance this time and I can undoubtedly say that the bulk of my profits come from the LH network.

If anything, I think its the issue of the player that cannot adapt to a new environment.

and IMO, LH isnt broken, the aircraft types youre using are  *cough* 777/340 *cough*

[alexgv1]

and IMO, LH isnt broken, the aircraft types youre using are  *cough* 777/340 *cough*

Which they shouldn't be. They both have their uses, i.e. for beyond A330 range.

[Jona L.]

i've never played during this "magic carpet" era, with either a SH or LH airline so cant comment on how pricing has changed.
Past games I have played with a substantial SH and minimal LH network, yet have gone for more of a balance this time and I can undoubtedly say that the bulk of my profits come from the LH network.

If anything, I think its the issue of the player that cannot adapt to a new environment.

and IMO, LH isnt broken, the aircraft types youre using are   *cough* 777/340 *cough*

As you said you weren't playing in the older times, thus you don't know it.... knowledge of nothing but an opinion about everything... *thumbs up*

Anyhow, In past games 777 and 330/340 used to be great planes even if not used as a magic carpet (C and F class only, for those who don't know the term).

About what you say about me: I play in LHR ever since I started, and never had these issues yet. Neither with 777, nor A330/340, not even 744!

With fuel at $985 profits at American Southern remain above $70m p/w.  Seems just EMB & 757's was a wise choice as it is not the size of your a/c that matters or the length of your routes, the size of profits is key  

« Last Edit: Today at 09:49:02 by SAC »

Well, read the topic, please, we talk about LH routes on widebodies, and not a domestic airline flying mini a/c

[Zombie Slayer]

From a thread a while back....I think you remember which one, Jona  

Quote from: jetwestinc on September 14, 2011, 05:59:07 PM
Or a lesson in fleet commonality. Let me know how those 777's treat you when fuel is over $1200  
Jona's reply
a) Fuel not yet went over 1000$
b) my break even point of fuel pricing is at 1400$
c) B777 > Other Boeing > Airbus > other manufacturers > producers from former USSR

Point B is of particular interest to me, as fuel is at $981 as you close up shop this game.....

[Jona L.]

From a thread a while back....I think you remember which one, Jona 

Quote from: jetwestinc on September 14, 2011, 05:59:07 PM
Or a lesson in fleet commonality. Let me know how those 777's treat you when fuel is over $1200 
Jona's reply
a) Fuel not yet went over 1000$
b) my break even point of fuel pricing is at 1400$
c) B777 > Other Boeing > Airbus > other manufacturers > producers from former USSR

Point B is of particular interest to me, as fuel is at $981 as you close up shop this game.....

Well, then I only flew <200 a/c and thus needed not to exceed 5000NM on my route distances. After I filled most of these routes I kindof had to use the longer ones which lead to a lower break even point. Also my CI broke in after taking delivery of DPed aircraft which lead to even lower LFs (40-50% vs. 65% before). So to conclude: you refer to outdated data!

[stevecree]

In fairness to Jetwest Jona that post was dated 14 September, surely you had far far more than 200 a/c just 3 real weeks ago ?

[Jona L.]

In fairness to Jetwest Jona that post was dated 14 September, surely you had far far more than 200 a/c just 3 real weeks ago ?

Maybe 250, but not much more. I had my fastest growth close to the end, as I had opened my 2nd hub AMS and took delivery of my regular new orders (A346 and 773) and also took deliveries off the used market (A343E/X and B772/3). Anyhow, I started most of the 5500NM+ routes about at that time (a bit after that posting). The problem here is that from LHR most of the big Asian cities (Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta, Shanghai and Manila) and also South America (Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, Santiago de Chile [Pudahuel airport]) and last but not least Honululu are all over 5000NM (most of the named also exceed 5500NM). Thus most of the big routes are not reachable in a profitable way effectively. You can cover a part, by mixing them in 7-day-rotations with some shorter legs, but you have by far not enough of these short distance flights [meaning 2000-3500NM flights] to cover all the long routes and still be profitable. This only with no competition, if you add that, pretty massive, factor in, it looks pretty dark in this sector.

And for those of you shouting that LHR is so different: distances are nearly equal to FRA, AMS and CDG   Also all the gains you have through high demands are evened out with (if not reduced to less than) other airports by the high competition you have because everyone flies into LHR.


Cheers,
Jona L.

[JumboShrimp]

There is a huge difference between flying a route with 15% or more C demand and one with 5% or less C demand, and LHR has far more of the former ones than any other airport.  That's why the argument that LHR is different still has merrit.

As far as competition into LHR, Dan Dantes said it as well, that everyone eventually flies to LHR.  And with Frequency having such an overwhelming effect in AWS, 777, 340, 747, 380 can really be vulnerable.

[FlyTO]

Which is why frequency should not be as big of a factor still...(I thought was improved, but can still see it being a major influence on market share and ultimately profits/losses). Maybe it could be improved based on distance of route too instead of just the demand (just a suggestion?)

Also with smaller planes with tech stops should be penalized especially in Modern Times era where based on real life, no major airline does fuel stops anymore as there are planes that can fly non-stop and real life passengers would not like it...

On the other hand, these sim passengers really have no preference after all for ways of travelling from point A to B...and thats because this game is a simulator trying to replicate the real life in some aspects effectively, while missing the real life aspect in other ways.

And back to the post, the A330/A346 make great profits with no competition, but with competition it barely breaks even..so one can either try to manage and build an airline that replicates one in real life, or just run an airline far from real life but be successful in this simulator with its limitation.

And I will be leaving once I reach my personal goal set for this game world as replacing old expiring planes really does become annoying.

Kevin

[JumboShrimp]

And I will be leaving once I reach my personal goal set for this game world as replacing old expiring planes really does become annoying.

Kevin

You know about "Move schedule" function, correct?

Or is American Southern proving to be more competition than you can handle? 

[Ansettaddict123]

And I will be leaving once I reach my personal goal set for this game world as replacing old expiring planes really does become annoying.

a la, fuel is too expensive for my cumbersome wide bodies and i don't cope well with competition? 

[FlyTO]

a la, fuel is too expensive for my cumbersome wide bodies and i don't cope well with competition? 

Yes and No. This topic is about long haul (again) which relates to wide bodies. I won't say that fuel is the only determining factor resulting in low profits for the widebodies. How does one even calculate break even for fuel cost?

Competition? No not really, I was always open to new competition as it was getting lonely and boring without new unserved routes to open with all the new planes coming in so I just use them to replace existing ones.

And maybe I will consider running a medium and large AC only airline in the next MT game world as this is still only my 2nd game world I have been in and first time actually flying a lot of LH (MT4 was based in ZGGG, China)...LAX wasn't my preferred base but I wanted a bigger challenge.

But yeah anyways, I'm just hoping my airline can carry 500M total passengers before leaving (so stop telling your other alliance members to tech-stop to LAX haha)

Yes I do know about the move schedule...but it gets really repetitive with finding and leasing used AC to replace the expiring AC, then to move the schedule, open a new window, terminate old AC lease, rename the upcoming delivery AC with the same registration code, etc.

Mind you, all done with mobile (android) and occasionally the ipad.

[JumboShrimp]

Yes I do know about the move schedule...but it gets really repetitive with finding and leasing used AC to replace the expiring AC, then to move the schedule, open a new window, terminate old AC lease, rename the upcoming delivery AC with the same registration code, etc.

Mind you, all done with mobile (android) and occasionally the ipad.

You do all that work to avoid C/D checks?  That's certainly not a worthwile thing to do for airline your size.  I just take the checks as they come.  All that happens is that other aircraft flying the same route get a slightly higher LF, while another aircraft is in the middle of C/D check.

I really don't avoind C/D checks at all.  Early in the game, I don't want to lose any aircraft.  Late in the game, it is just too much work and savings are minimal.  The replacement aircraft is already losing 2 weeks you are paying just to get it delivered...

[stevecree]

You know about "Move schedule" function, correct?

Or is American Southern proving to be more competition than you can handle?  

It may well be a factor Jumbo as my EMB's are doing fantastically well at LAX.  Seems frequency is king EMB v 320, aswell as 757 v 777, but I know that so that is how I play.   No point having loss making a/c types just so I can say I fly long haul properly - it just BK's you !  Personally I want an airline that can survive fuel spikes, and I have more than succeeded at that, as with fuel at $998 I was still making $65m per week plus spending $25m on advertising - a stark difference to many long haul airlines.

I am actually a little disappointed Kevin is giving up after inviting me there in the first place, you could have stuck it out a little longer than he has.   You never know what is around the corner Kevin...fuel could drop to $600 - you never know....on other the other hand bad could happen aswell so maybe now is a good time to get out without having no choice but to BK.

For me LAX will be boring without Kevin...maybe a new challenge is needed to keep the game interesting...I may possibly get some widebodies of my own and see  if I can make LH work.

[vitongwangki]

as with fuel at $998 I was still making $65m per week plus spending $25m on advertising - a stark difference to many long haul airlines.

For me LAX will be boring without Kevin...maybe a new challenge is needed to keep the game interesting...I have heard LAS is nice this time of year, or possibly get some widebodies and see  if I can make LH work.

Oh, I am making 100Mi profit now, with spending only 11M on advertising, but I have just 3/4 of your revenue, see the difference?

Btw, if you wanna operate "large" widebody, you are welcome to seek guidance from me (Sorry that I don't know how to operate 767s  )