V1.2 new feature question

[Filippo]

Dear Sami,

I read that a new feature for V1.2 will be the fact that there will be delivery gaps of 30 days or more for very large aircraft. You said that it would be more realistic. I though would like to point out in would take 5 years + waiting for an airline ordering 60 vl aircraft. Isn't that a bit too much considered the fact that in the first years we have a world all to ourselves with lots and lots of free demand? Furthermore, I often read in airlinerworld, that expanding carriers receive much more than 1 vl aircraft per month. Take emirates (which usually receives 3) or thai (which often receives 2) and others.

I like the idea, but I think that it wouldn't be too realistic. I would therefore like to suggest the limit to be adjusted to 10/15 days, as it would be in reality when an airline ordered a big number of aircraft and specified that it wanted them fairy quickly.

Thanks,
Filippo

[Curse]

Yeah, I agree to Filippo.

It's not only the smaller procution lines, but why one airline has to wait for another plane if it's the only orderer? It shoud be equal of a plane is manufactured for company A or company B, so if you buy a plane with low demand, you should be "rewarded" with shorter delivery times.


This feature forces one to lease/buy unattractive used planes to grow.

[Sami]

short answer from cellphone..

The idea is not to have unlimited/too fast supply of planes, and huge pax demands that both would make the play too easy and lead to huge airlines. Work with the 'world of unfilled demand' is in progress but probably something to tell in next version then of that.

[type45]

I fully agree with both of you Filippo and Curse

From my point of view, this is something punishing big airlines who have money to buy a lot of planes at a time also slow down the growing speed of smaller airlines who want big planes to expand. I'm not guilty to be big, right?

And for the free slots problem, I think I never see production slots move forward if there are still free slots. Producers can get pay from airlines earlier if they can deliverer planes earlier, right? Even the buyers cancel orders, there are buyers who want to get delivered earlier. For example Hong Kong Airline take 6 extra A330-200, which come from other airlines' cancelled orders, a few mouths earlier than their order before. There are no reasonable for Boeing or Airbus let their workers come back and doing nothing between free slots

[d2031k]

I too read Airliner World - I even bought the very first issue with Air 2000 on the front

I know the purpose of this move is to limit initial growth and level things out - which is good - but maybe one possible method to improve availability with this longer production spacing could be for the leasing companies to order new aircraft when they're launched too, as well as supplying used aircraft.  Do they currently receive the cancelled orders?  Or is that speculation?

Companies like ILFC and GECAS have hundreds of aircraft bought from new on their books, which are leased out to airlines.  They could maybe order some aircraft too and it could also potentially keep some production lines open a little longer.  For example, often the production line of an aircraft is about to close when a game has just begun and so that aircraft gets removed from the game. The leasing company could perhaps order some itself - this would also allow slower growing airlines that have missed out on the early orders to get the aircraft too.

Maybe having set days when the used market is refreshed would give a more level playing field added to this?  There are always players that know what time the market is refreshed and those that don't.

[Curse]

The idea is not to have unlimited/too fast supply of planes, and huge pax demands that both would make the play too easy and lead to huge airlines. Work with the 'world of unfilled demand' is in progress but probably something to tell in next version then of that.

I'm new to AWS and maybe this is not working in full world games or at another timeline, but looking to Euro Challenge #2.

I placed ~40 Orders for B737, other Airlines orderered B737, too and the waiting list climbed up to 300. No problem for the 3-4 "big airlines" (at this moment of the game), we bought A321 instead or B757. Some (Me for example) bought Airbus and Boeing simultaneous. Small airlines can't buy(/lease) expensive planes or another fleet category, so they have to wait at the long Boeing list. And if Airbus and Boeing waitinglists are too long, a strong airline can take another category and buy MD-8x/MD-9x or Tupolev-2x4.

So this affects airlines with weak earnings, late starter etc. more than one who just orders a third or fourth category, or I'm wrong?


A small question at this point, but only small experience from Beginners Game;
Production rates, for example A330/A340, are very low now. In this category there are five, six or more different models. It maybe realistic to wait some years for an aircraft, but a) it's a game and b) in real life there is more time, not only 15-20 years. Hope this doesn't sound like an offense, but what is the thinking behind reducing the small production rates more?
And yes, I know, the problem mainly exists at start when everybody expands his airline, maybe there should be extra production rates at the first 1-2 years.


Whatever, I'm sure 1.2 is at least amazing like the current version, so I'm glad looking forward to it.

[Sigma]

I like the spirit behind the change, just not so sure it'll have quite the positive outcome that is desired.

First off, since the spacing will effect everyone, not just the large orderers, it does nothing at all to 'level the playing field'.  It slows growth, yes.  But it slows growth for everyone, which is the exact same as doing it for no one.  A 'small' airline will be no more likely to be able to "catch up" than before.  Particularly considering my next point:

Secondly, if airlines with expansionistic tendencies can't get new planes, they'll simply turn to the Used market as they've always done in the beginning of games.  Everyone knows how hard it is to get good planes in the beginning of the games and the newer players find this a constant source of frustration.  All this change does is prolong that frustration, because the "big" airlines will simply have to to turn to it for more planes for a longer period of time.  This will actually have the effect of making it harder for those smaller, less-experienced airlines.

As far as the "real-life" comparisons people are making -- one thing to consider is that, in many cases, these airlines that are taking big deliveries in real-life, aren't establising new routes with them, often times they're being used to replace older equipment on existing routes.  Few real airlines open 6+ routes every few weeks, let alone that many almost every single day.  Also consider the fact that, in AWS, most of your larger airlines are receiving 2-3+ types of A/C at a time.  So, while you may only be receiving 1-2 of one plane a month, you're likely receiving 1-2 of another model, and maybe 1-2 of another model, making your total acquisitions per month fairly high even when compared to reality.

[Filippo]

So, is it going to be adjusted?

Furthermore, this feature is a clear obstacle to the big airlines (who need huge amounts of vl aircraft) as much as the smaller ones who will find it even harder to grow by being in the intercontinental market. As somebody said, this prolongs the frustration found at the start of a game.

Also, by decreasing the production speed of these aircraft, people will have to look in the used market, so the ones who have the time to stay in front of this game 24H or the ones who know when planes are released will have yet another advantage!

[d2031k]

I think it will work out with longer gaps between new aircraft deliveries.  I agree players will have to use the used market more, but simply stating when the used aircraft are released would remove the frustration issue completely - it always used to be on a set day (was it Sunday?) Maybe this could be changed back to Mon, Wed, Sat or something similar.  You would least know when you can look again.

As mentioned in previous posts above, it will also draw the growth process out, but this would improve the world's latter stages - if the used market release dates were transparent.  Once the first 30-40% (sometimes less) of a world is over then it becomes a simple case of fleet renewal and a series of minor tweaks at major hubs.  Having competitors and trying to expand ahead of them is partly why AWS is so addictive, as everybody rushes to try and be the largest the quickest.  If this was slowed even a little bit by this move, I think it would prolong CEO's interest in their airlines.  Many large airlines have dozens of unscheduled aircraft sat around later on in the game or vast numbers sat for sale on the used market, but if you're still taking delivery of your first new aircraft later on, then the worlds would remain interesting for longer.

The current set-up also means it's near on impossible for somebody joining late on to create an airline that could really compete at a big hub.  With a slower new market, a player who knows what they're doing could catch up a fair bit utilising the used market.

[Filippo]

The problem is that growth is slowed for the airlines expanding first in the intercontinental sector and later in the international (ie choosing vl aircraft), whilst no restrictions are imposed on airlines which start by ordering small aircraft!

This is a bit unfair.

[jchaves]

The problem is that growth is slowed for the airlines expanding first in the intercontinental sector and later in the international (ie choosing vl aircraft), whilst no restrictions are imposed on airlines which start by ordering small aircraft!

This is a bit unfair.

How could it happen if the slowing is a change applied on all orders, every kind of aircraft? I didn't understand.

[Talentz]

HA HA HA ... judging from the reaction of this change... I wonder if my suggestion would be any better, eh Sami?


.. then again, the same reaction will probably happen once again 



Talentz

[Sami]

well.. I expected some 'whining' for sure, usually happens when dealing with planes or slots   (but that does not change a thing still.) People always expect endless supply of planes, slots and so on.

Anyway, no airline is going to receive widebody jets once every ~10 days like now in some cases..


(ps. Talentz. I've read your PM but nothing to reply about it yet..)

[Filippo]

at least I tried...

[Filippo]

pls, at least make it 15/20 days as it would be in reality!

[Filippo]

Another thing which I'm extremely worried about is the fact that games last around 20 years. Say, you need 100 vl aircraft (common at large hubs like NRT, SIN or LAX). With the new system, you need approximately 9 years to receive 100 vl aircraft, then also take into account 3 years of waiting. That gives you a total of 12 years to wait before you get 100 vl aircraft!!!!

I would understand this feature if games lasted 80 years, but since we only have around 20 years in a scenario, waiting 12 years is just not possible! Playing in intercontinental hubs will become impossible!

[Sami]

Please read what I wrote previously and calm down a bit.....