Russian built aircraft vs. sim rules

[Sami]

I've been PM'ing with one of our Russian users about updates to the aircraft and systems in regards of Russian point of view, and also for historical terms the Soviet things.

One possible change is that all Russian planes cannot be sold or exported to "Western" countries at all, until the late 1990s or so when the markets opened more. And naturally vice versa that an airline based in Moscow for example is not allowed to use planes made by the capitalist pigs ( ) if the game year is around 1960-1990 ...

This would be realistic but is it too harsh?

[bleedfax18]

I don't think that this should be a problem. Everybody here likes this game for at least one reason: the realism. And the situation was like that until like 20 years ago.

And if you are playing a game that takes place in this timespan, you should be aware of this fact when choosing your hub in that game.

[Sami]

oh yes, and of course I'd have to add a warning of this when you select the base in such countries with those restrictions..

[bleedfax18]

Yep, that would only be fair.

Talking about fairness, would the financial support given by the governments of the Soviet block to their airlines also be modeled into the game then (i.e. highly reduced fuel prices)? I guess otherwise it wouldn't be possible for airlines based there to compete.

[Sami]

that's more tricky issue, as in the past many companies have been state owned, and state funded too. And many still exist today too...

[Sigma]

I don't think it would be 'fair' to force airlines within Soviet-bloc nations to use Soviet aircraft without providing them with the government subsidies that they received.  No way they could have survived operating those fuel-guzzling aircraft without them.  You can't give them the bad side without the positive side as well.

And that then opens up the window to various other nations (i.e. virtually all) that provide subsidies to their air industries in one form or another, particularly regional carriers.  Or then, for the same reason as the aircraft limitations, impose limitations on what airlines can operate into Soviet nations.

Frankly I'd consider it far easier to just leave things alone.  If you want to start mirroring political decisions you open the door to countless limitations that have equal merit to be modeled.  Perhaps one day they should/will be, but I doubt that'll happen soon.  In my opinion we're not here to mirror reality, we're here to create our own world based on reality.  While politics play a huge role in the airline industry, it's not something you can easily integrate one small piece at a time, particularly if you're only choosing to integrate the downside of it.

EDIT:  Maybe, as a band-aid, you can determine the average fuel consumption difference between Russian and comparable Western aircraft and have players based in Soviet-bloc nations get "subsidy revenue" that is equal to a % of their fuel bill.  Then you've got a problem of what to do when nations are no longer under the Soviet banner anymore though.

[Dazwalsh]

I think Sigma hit the nail on the head there well said.

[Kazari]

I think either the subsidy idea OR reduced fuel prices would be good. It would be impossible to survive in the 1979-1982 period, for example, without such things if you're restricted to Soviet aircraft.

[Sigma]

Reduced fuel prices... so much better of an idea than mine.

If the pricing is indeed localized as stated on the fuel page, one would have to think it would be 'easy' to implement reduced prices in Soviet bloc nations as well as easier to implement nations emerging out from the 'Iron Curtain'.

[Caesar_585]

At this point sami, I believe the best way to implement this plan is to create a regional game in the soviet era between the USSR and then allies and trading partners starting in the 1970's or 1980's till present where restrictions can be lifted to include routes to other cities around the world but all airlines will still have to be based in the soviet region. It will have a game rating of HARD as it WILL provide a great challenge to those who dare accept  as well as test the strategies of the game's most seasoned players.

[Dasha]

Russian users? Are there more than me? Nice...

Anyway.. I think it's a good idea but only implementing the aircraft rules will make it impossible to live through the 1970's oil crisis.

So if you implement them, do something about reduced fuel prices for those airlines or some state aid for them. Don't implement the rule without some help.

Also it's still a bit of that situation right now. Russian carriers, if they buy a western aircraft, have to pay HUGE taxes ont hem and therefore most Western planes flying in Russia are leased, or flown by airlines with CEO's who have no idea what they are doing, like S7.

Then again, ALL Russian airlines except Transaero are partly state owned.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

Hi everybody
First, in existence of Soviet Union the direct state help was received basically by local flights in northern areas of the country.
Certainly, Soviet airplanes were not economic in fuel, but their building and the price were low.
The fuel price in USSR was 100 rub/1 tonn ($149.25) and did'nt it vary till april 1991 y.
Besides, the information about fuel efficiency of the soviet planes  in game, is incorrect. Documents specify that Il-62, for example, average fuel burn is about 7000-7500 kg/nr, in game almost twice is more. All correct data has been sent to Sami already.
I thinl that for realism it is necessary to create at least the minimum distinctions according to the history period of a century.
Passengers demand withi Soviet Union was very high. I am very disappointed by game 1970-1984, completely not similar.
In 1970 y. beetwin Moscow (Vnukovo) and Kiev everyday has been transported 1000 pax one way (2000 round trip) - 8 scheduled filghts by Il-18, and some more An-24. But in the game - 40 pax is maximum.  

Here my offers for game rules in USSR territory till 1992:
1. At the airport there can be only one user (aviation devision)
2. To establish the main rules not profit of flights. Main rules - is average load factor. Then above this factor, then more prestigiously airline (aviation devision).
Price of planes 0, tickets price 0. All players, who have average load factor less than 75 % leave from the games (bankrupts).
4. To establish limits aviation production according to their real. (The full information about airplanes manufacture by every year has been sent Sami already.)
5. In 1992 to establish as the initial financial capital (many at start) = total cost of all user airplanes according to thier world market price...
Further to play usual game.

And still.
As dates of certification of the airports are known,
I suggest to add in the airport information page the list of airplanes can serve (see image). Plans of reception of certificates to declare in news.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Sergey Goncharenko]

Then again, ALL Russian airlines except Transaero are partly state owned.

It not absolutely so.
Now almost all Russian aviation keeps on the private capital. Influence of the State the formal. The state does not render the help to airlines, it only pretends that assists...

[Sergey Goncharenko]

One more very important fact.
For the first time, the airplanes of foreign manufacture  have started to fly in 1992 for regular flights on territory of the former USSR.
However airlines which operation these airplanes have faced very big problems, because almost all airports had no certificates operation service of foreign airplanes.  For someone people can seem strange, but there are facts. For example, Pulkovo airport (St.-Petersburg) has been received the  officially certificate service of some foreign planes in 1999 y. only. The majority of the small airports have no certificates till now.. (

[Dasha]

It not absolutely so.
Now almost all Russian aviation keeps on the private capital. Influence of the State the formal. The state does not render the help to airlines, it only pretends that assists...

The two biggest apart from TransAero are state-owned Aeroflot. The state still have 51% of the shares (I work for them) and S7 of which the state holds 23% of the shares (I USED to work for them). The last airline is struggling financially because of the import taxed of their Western fleet.

Rossiya I'm not sure but since they still fly Ilyushins and MedvedevI'm guessing they are state owned too.

All the smaller airlines are in somehow owned by a (local) government. Maybe they use their own capital but the state holds the shares.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

It has no value, as in any case all airlines to play by market rules. You agree?

[Dasha]

Yes they do but you agree with me that if Aeroflot was not state owned, would they still fly the Il-96 and the Tu-154's??

[Sergey Goncharenko]

Yes they do but you agree with me that if Aeroflot was not state owned, would they still fly the Il-96 and the Tu-154's??

You it is serious? It is absolutely mixed. Aeroflot behaves, as the normal commercial enterprise, refusing idiotic soviet airplanes.

[Dasha]

Okay let me rephrase it...

Why is Aeroflot flying the Il-96? Obviously not because it's good fuel economics....

And the Il-96 was build AFTER the Soviet Union making it a RUSSIAN plane... not a Soviet airplane...

[Sergey Goncharenko]

1. Ил-96 is the SOVIET  AIRPLANE, because this project was born in 1978. For example, look here http://www.uacrussia.ru/ru/models/civil/il_96/history/
Has no value that it built Il-96 after brake USSR. The project initially had defects and was guided by the Soviet economy.
2.Aeroflot  will tries to evade from Il-96. This liner is not need for operation even free of charge. ) About it was openly written in press all time.