Very Small Planes and High Density Seating

[Jupiter]

So, I've read the manual on seat configuration, and it mentions that passengers tolerate it on short routes and on small planes. But what about longer routes (+5 hours) on smaller planes?

Say one has a slow prop plane that has a range of 800+ nm. If you were to have a route go 800 nm (5 hours or so), would the passengers not show up? Would it be better to outfit the aircraft with standard seating because of these potential flights? How much of a difference would it make given the massive boost in frequency of flights a small aircraft provides?

Thanks for any help.

-Jupiter

[alexgv1]

I'd say keep your small prop planes in high density configuration and don't fly them on routes that long at all because they wont make any money, to be brutally honest.

They are generally only effective on routes under 400nm, and only if they have high utilisation (a lot of sectors).

[Jupiter]

Well, I knew they wouldn't make a lot of money. I'm doing okay in that regard, this is more designed to increase frequency at certain destinations and serve a few smaller ones just for the sake of it.

While keeping most destinations short, I ask about long ones because since the plane is so insanely slow, it provides the possibility to leave prior to midnight and arrive in the next time zone over after 5 am, allowing me overnight flights without time penalty. The question is whether it's better to...

a) Fly them with high density seating
b) Fly them with regular seating
c) Just ground the planes at night
d) Fly short high density seating routes with time penalties at night

[ucfknightryan]

In general, you don't want to fly a flight longer than 2-2.5 hours with HD seating...the pax start getting cranky 

How small of a turboprop are we talking about here?

[Jupiter]

In general, you don't want to fly a flight longer than 2-2.5 hours with HD seating...the pax start getting cranky 

How small of a turboprop are we talking about here?

14 seats high density, 12 in regular.

The question I suppose is whether those 2 extra seats per short trip are worthwhile.

I don't really expect these things to make a profit, just minimize my losses on them as much as possible while I add new slots and steal business in short-haul routes.

[alexgv1]

a) Fly them with high density seating
b) Fly them with regular seating
c) Just ground the planes at night
d) Fly short high density seating routes with time penalties at night

a) & b) I'd say experiment with these two to see which is more successful
c) Sometimes it would be cheaper to leave the plane on the ground as running it overnight incurs more costs (fuel, navigation fees, etc.)
d) Wouldn't recommend this you would get pretty much 0% LF on short routes between 2300-0500 arrivals/departures

[Jupiter]

a) & b) I'd say experiment with these two to see which is more successful
c) Sometimes it would be cheaper to leave the plane on the ground as running it overnight incurs more costs (fuel, navigation fees, etc.)
d) Wouldn't recommend this you would get pretty much 0% LF on short routes between 2300-0500 arrivals/departures

I've always thought the time penalty was midnight, not 23:00....

Anyway, regarding a and b, that was what I was thinking, but I figured I'd ask to avoid a lot of seat reconfiguration and aircraft out of service if someone knew which was the better way to go.

[Zombie Slayer]

I've always thought the time penalty was midnight, not 23:00....

My experience shows that between 0600-2300, there is no penalty. It seems to me there is a SMALL penalty for flights departing between 0500-0600 and 2300-0000 and flights arriving between 0500-0600 that departed before midnite ie when a route is saturated, these flights start operating at a decreased LF before flights between 0600-2330, but after flights between 0000-0500 (and yes, flights between 0000-0500 will always operate significantly emptier regardless of market saturation)

Don

[ucfknightryan]

My experience shows that between 0600-2300, there is no penalty. It seems to me there is a SMALL penalty for flights departing between 0500-0600 and 2300-0000 and flights arriving between 0500-0600 that departed before midnite ie when a route is saturated, these flights start operating at a decreased LF before flights between 0600-2330, but after flights between 0000-0500 (and yes, flights between 0000-0500 will always operate significantly emptier regardless of market saturation)

Don

My observation has been that the maximum penalty region is from 0100-0355.  0000-0055 and 0400-0455 incur a lower penalty, though it's still not exactly small.

[Sigma]

Personally, putting a 14-pax plane on a route for the purposes of increasing frequency is a pretty cheap thing to do, and 'gaming the game' to the extreme.  You're going to be hemorrhaging money regardless, whether it's 12 or 14 seats, so it doesn't really matter.

[alexgv1]

Most of my departures in the morning are 0500-0600 and they have no problems compared to other routes.

[Talentz]

I've done what your thinking of doing. At that range, its not cost effective. I've flown D.H 114s over 1000nm (via tech) to no avail. They make no profit to speak of and my aircraft were all owned.

The overall cost structure just doesn't work with that few seats.



Talentz

[Jupiter]

I've done what your thinking of doing. At that range, its not cost effective. I've flown D.H 114s over 1000nm (via tech) to no avail. They make no profit to speak of and my aircraft were all owned.

The overall cost structure just doesn't work with that few seats.



Talentz

Yeah, I learned quickly without even trying that the ticket cost to an 800 nm destination is only about 15% higher than it is to a 250 nm destination. Given the extra fuel and whatnot, it clearly makes more sense to just leave the planes grounded at night and fly them to short destinations 20-30 times per day for the more major cities.