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Author Topic: Two requests on slot/route management  (Read 829 times)

slickwillbo

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Two requests on slot/route management
« on: March 20, 2019, 09:43:11 PM »
Earlier in GW #2, I had scheduled routes to be flown each day by 1 plane. Later, when I had acquired 7 of that fleet type, I tried to convert the daily flight to be flown by each of the 7 fleet types (gazz's "7 planes-7 days" scheduling). This leads me to two requests:

1. It would greatly help if the "create each day as a separate route" were available for editing existing routes.

This can be circumvented by deleting the old route (while keeping slots), and creating an identical route with each day as a separate route. However, I ran into a related problem: if you have too many unassigned slots, you cannot create a new route, even if you're using existing slots you own to create the route, which leads to #2:

2. You should be able to access the create new route page - but not buy new slots - if you have too many unassigned slots at an airport.

If you have too many slots not assigned to be flown, you cannot even access the create new route editing page. Thus, you can't create routes to assign your unassigned slots to be flown, which seems to defeat the purpose of the limit. For example, if you delete the routes (but keep the slots) from seven planes with 3 daily routes each, I believe you'd be unable to create new routes even to use the slots you already own.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 09:55:41 PM by slickwillbo »

Offline Mort

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 10:40:20 PM »
Big +1 here

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 11:16:38 PM »
Release slots and see if that helps.

slickwillbo

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2019, 11:21:58 PM »
Release slots and see if that helps.

Perhaps you are being snarky, but the point is to be able to use existing, owned slots on new routes, not release them to the public pool.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Two requests on slot/route managing
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 11:32:20 PM »
Perhaps you are being snarky, but the point is to be able to use existing, owned slots on new routes, not release them to the public pool.

You catch on quick. ;D

But it’s not an invalid suggestion to test the system. I’ve not run into this problem before when optimizing. (Keep in mind my airlines in the past have not been based at such slot restricted airport)

Are you realigning these routes one by one or are you mass deleting routes, keeping slots and trying to recreate onto a 7/7 off a guide or best fit principle? Try releasing a set publicly and repurchase (on one route, as a test) to see if it still behaves the same.

Edit: looks like you’re mass deleting and keeping slots after giving OP a second read.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 12:13:21 AM by Zobelle »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 11:43:03 PM »
2. You should be able to access the create new route page - but not buy new slots - if you have too many unassigned slots at an airport.

If you have too many slots not assigned to be flown, you cannot even access the create new route editing page. Thus, you can't create routes to assign your unassigned slots to be flown, which seems to defeat the purpose of the limit. For example, if you delete the routes (but keep the slots) from seven planes with 3 daily routes each, I believe you'd be unable to create new routes even to use the slots you already own.

Agreed on you point 1, being able to edit route with 7 independent just like  1 x 7 flights.  It has been requested numerous times.

But your #2, you are prevented from creating new route (when you have too many slots in flight) only when your new route is buying even more slots at your airport.

If you are reusing existing slots, or if you are not buying new slots (by checking the check mark not to buy slots), you can still create the route.

slickwillbo

  • Former member
Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 11:51:31 PM »

But your #2, you are prevented from creating new route (when you have too many slots in flight) only when your new route is buying even more slots at your airport.

If you are reusing existing slots, or if you are not buying new slots (by checking the check mark not to buy slots), you can still create the route.

This has not been my experience, but I don’t have a screenshot to prove it as I’m not shuffling routes at the moment. This was the case maybe a week of real time ago.

When I confirm my destinations with too many unassigned slots, I don’t even get to the editing screen to be able to enter my times and fleet type- I get an error immediately. The system can’t even know if I’m using slots I have or not, since I haven’t entered a departure time. I’m sure I will get the same error when I convert fleet types in 1960, so I’ll post then if I get the opportunity. Hopefully not.


Offline Zobelle

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 11:53:01 PM »
This has not been my experience, but I don’t have a screenshot to prove it as I’m not shuffling routes at the moment. This was the case maybe a week of real time ago.

When I confirm my destinations with too many unassigned slots, I don’t even get to the editing screen to be able to enter my times and fleet type- I get an error immediately. The system can’t even know if I’m using slots I have or not, since I haven’t entered a departure time. I’m sure I will get the same error when I convert fleet types in 1960, so I’ll post then if I get the opportunity. Hopefully not.
Try to get a screenshot to better understand your issue.

Offline Mort

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 11:56:47 PM »
Agreed on you point 1, being able to edit route with 7 independent just like  1 x 7 flights.  It has been requested numerous times.

But your #2, you are prevented from creating new route (when you have too many slots in flight) only when your new route is buying even more slots at your airport.

If you are reusing existing slots, or if you are not buying new slots (by checking the check mark not to buy slots), you can still create the route.

That last bit isn't entirely true. If you have more unscheduled slots than is allowed at the airport already, you actually cannot proceed to the create route screen, so you cannot even have the option to further create routes without buying slots.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 11:58:10 PM »
This has not been my experience, but I don’t have a screenshot to prove it as I’m not shuffling routes at the moment. This was the case maybe a week of real time ago.

When I confirm my destinations with too many unassigned slots, I don’t even get to the editing screen to be able to enter my times and fleet type- I get an error immediately. The system can’t even know if I’m using slots I have or not, since I haven’t entered a departure time. I’m sure I will get the same error when I convert fleet types in 1960, so I’ll post then if I get the opportunity. Hopefully not.

Is it possible you are mixing unassigned slots and unassigned routes?

You can have unlimited number of unassigned routes with no slots, but there may be a limit to how many unassigned (to aircraft) routes with slots that you can have.

slickwillbo

  • Former member
Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 12:04:11 AM »
Is it possible you are mixing unassigned slots and unassigned routes?

You can have unlimited number of unassigned routes with no slots, but there may be a limit to how many unassigned (to aircraft) routes with slots that you can have.

No, I'm not mixing them up. It looks like Mort has had the same issue.

slickwillbo

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Re: Two requests on slot/route managing
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 12:14:00 AM »
You catch on quick. ;D

But it’s not an invalid suggestion to test the system. I’ve not run into this problem before when optimizing. (Keep in mind my airlines in the past have not been based at such slot restricted airport)

Are you realigning these routes one by one or are you mass deleting routes, keeping slots and trying to recreate onto a 7/7 off a guide or best fit principle? Try releasing a set publicly and repurchase (on one route, as a test) to see if it still behaves the same.

I'm not sure what you mean by guide or best fit principle, but I've attached a schedule of one of my C-46 groups of seven if that answers your questions. Essentially, I create the routes to be flown by one plane 7x a week initially, and then when I have seven of the plane types, I rejigger the schedule to have each of seven planes fly the route 1x per week.

It would certainly work if I deleted the routes, released the slots, and re-acquired them. But as you see, each of these C-46s is using 24 slots per week. And when I plan to move them to my new Viscount in a couple of years, I'd have to spend half a million dollars just to re-schedule the routes of seven planes. And I have 80 C-46s. Plus I'd run the risk that one of my, ahem, competitors grabs the slots. Simply allowing players to create routes with existing slots - regardless of how many unassigned slots they have - would fix the problem.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 12:22:04 AM »
That last bit isn't entirely true. If you have more unscheduled slots than is allowed at the airport already, you actually cannot proceed to the create route screen, so you cannot even have the option to further create routes without buying slots.

I think this (that you can't even go to route creation screen) applies only in you have too many unassigned routes with slots.  You can check your Manage Routes -> Notifications if you have too many of those.

If you do not have too many unassigned routes (with slots), you can go to route creation screen and either re-use existing slots or create routes without slots.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Two requests on slot/route managing
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 12:27:16 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by guide or best fit principle, but I've attached a schedule of one of my C-46 groups of seven if that answers your questions. Essentially, I create the routes to be flown by one plane 7x a week initially, and then when I have seven of the plane types, I rejigger the schedule to have each of seven planes fly the route 1x per week.

It would certainly work if I deleted the routes, released the slots, and re-acquired them. But as you see, each of these C-46s is using 24 slots per week. And when I plan to move them to my new Viscount in a couple of years, I'd have to spend half a million dollars just to re-schedule the routes of seven planes. And I have 80 C-46s. Plus I'd run the risk that one of my, ahem, competitors grabs the slots. Simply allowing players to create routes with existing slots - regardless of how many unassigned slots they have - would fix the problem.

I have to say, that’s probably as creative as I’ve ever seen someone get with C46’s (explains your stated margins)

Perhaps mort explained it best here but while time consuming it may be best to do these realignments one route/one slot set at a time if it helps circumvent the issue you’re having.


Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 07:57:24 AM »
Two hints / facts

1°) to prevent this kind of problem when starting my airline and I use 7-D, I usually build the whole schedule in advance. On the 1st plane that arrives, I put what I can. On the 2nd one, again. Choosing obviously the best routes of the whole 7-D. And then only when I get 7 planes I fill in the gaps.
Creates lack of efficiency before you reach 7 planes, but avoid you to find yourself naked in case you need to rework everything and they are no more slots.
I don't do this all the time, and sometimes mix both manners, but that's at least a possibility.

2°) when rescheduling to another fleet type with different speed and TaT, I consider that it's unavoidable to lose some slots (at least past a certain size). Because no matter what, the pattern will be different. I try to minimize it, putting these unused slots on crappy classic schedules, but for the rest I bite the bullet.

--------

Now, about the editing of 7-D schedules (change to 7-D, or edit 7 routes with the same n° at once, etc.), I couldn't agree more. As Joe said, been requested many times, and no clear answer from the administration, unfortunately.

Offline Mort

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 08:32:03 AM »
For sure, there are definitely ways of avoiding hitting the error message locking you out from route creation completely.

I ran into the issue whilst porting schedules between two completely different fleet groups, yes I could have forfeited all slots, but certain times of the day are just not worth risking losing!!

I would suggest instead of locking you from creating a route, it just instead automatically checks the 'do not buy slots' checkbox, and prevents you from unchecking it with the message you'd normally otherwise have seen.

As there is no designed limit for routes without slots, surely this should just be a quality of life fix?

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2019, 11:32:08 AM »
One may not have to necessarily forfeit slots if they edit one route set at a time.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2019, 01:25:58 PM »
Here's a screenshot, as I just hit it.
While I can understand the idea (avoid slot hogging), I'd like to underline its negative aspect: I'm not trying to hog slots, I'm trying to do a renewal. Thus, to avoid paying slots twice, I keep them. What will remain unused will be released, that's obvious.
But in the meanwhile I cannot perform my renewal (because speed is different, patterns are different).

So the only solution is that I have to release the slots, risk them to be gobbled by my competitors and pay for the slots I just released a second time?
Sami, I'm sorry to say this, but it seems a little bit ill-adapted. I agree that we have to fight slot hogging, but what airport admin in the world would make force a guy to release his slots in order to be able to buy them back?

Offline DanDan

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2019, 01:42:44 PM »
Why not have a button "return all unused slots" or maybe, within the airport-page "return all unused slots at this airport"?

That would also get rid of the annoying "slot warning" messages.


And add to that:
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,79648.msg469452.html#msg469452

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Two requests on slot/route management
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2019, 01:44:09 PM »
I've had this before, rebuilding my schedule into a 7 day schedule. But all I did was arrange my work so that as I created new flights, every so often I would schedule them to planes. It's doable, just requires a bit of planning.

I think the restriction to only have so many unused slots at slot constrained airports is reasonable, so the code is doing what it's supposed to do.

I've not seen the restriction where you cannot go into edit route.

If nothing else create the new routes and do not buy the slots, then close the old routes, keeping slots, then go in and edit the new routes, picking up the slots whether paid for or not.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. We definitely do though need a better way to manage slots, right now it's a nightmare.

To improve slot management I'd
1) have an option on manage routes where you select the routes without slots, then tick a box next to each route, or an ALL box at the top, to buy the slots.
2) When closing a route have an option to keep the slots at your base, but release the slots at the other end.
3) Have the email saying "these slots will be taken away from you in X weeks" an URL you can click to release the slots in the email at base, far end, or both.
4) Have a screen where you can see all slots not linked to routes and have again a tick box, or ALL, to release them. Optionally group by destination as in manage routes.

Simon
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 01:47:38 PM by groundbum2 »

 

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