Changelog and Previews comment thread

[Sami]

Comment thread for AirwaySim's updates and previews

All updates, changes and fixes to the simulations are announced at the forums in their own Changelogthread. There are also own threads for early previews of future features and changes related to the website and forums.

To keep the announcements organized the thread is locked for new replies and comments, so please use this general forum's thread instead for all comments, questions and feedback about the changes. If you spot actual errors or some of the changed features won't work, then please post a separate bug report.


Links
Changelog (game): http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,58865.0.html
Previews: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,58864.0.html
Changelog (website/forums): http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,54937.0.html

[schro]

On the big cargo update item.....

While I see the efforts to simplify the complicated topic of cargo to make it easier for the players, there's still a few obtuse things that don't really make sense in my mind. The one that sticks out the most is the requirement to pre-partition the plane's available cargo space into a particular type. Given that I'd expect demand and competition to be somewhat lumpy, it's really not possible to pick the "most optimum" configuration in advance between Light Cargo and Standard Cargo, assuming both types can be flown within a given plane. Sure, there will be some generalities for planes that are inherently more volume restricted vs more weight restricted, but that's more of a granular decision at flight time as to which cargo to load.

So, as a player, I would want my "staff" to select the optimal load of cargo to take on for a plane that has X passengers, Y payload capability and Z cargo capability and not have to balance that myself. Of course, there's the issue of pricing at that point as well - perhaps that's the differentiator between the categories that says what type actually gets loaded.

[Elouda]

I'm a little worried reading that passenger baggage amount, which is said to vary according to flight length, is dependent on aircraft size class, not actual flight range.

I fear this will further make the medium/large twinjet gap larger (BAC1-11 vs DC-9 for example), and also hurts things like the short range 747 variants, and short-haul configured large airliners in general.

[Sami]

So, as a player, I would want my "staff" to select the optimal load of cargo to take on for a plane that has X passengers, Y payload capability and Z cargo capability

I've considered that too, and it would be probably too heavy to calculate every time. (but this is still a possible option though)

I'm a little worried reading that passenger baggage amount, which is said to vary according to flight length, is dependent on aircraft size class, not actual flight range.

The cargo capability needs to be known beforehand, so it cannot be tied to the flight time. And anyways the difference in the bag amount between medium and large classes isn't that big, the average calculated weight difference is 1-2kg/pax (and large planes have larger cargo holds, so the few extra bags won't be a limiting factor). (the bags vs. aircraft size is a very minor thing in the big picture)

[Andre]

I'm really looking forward to the Cargo update!

I don't mind having to allocate cargo space for the different cargo categories on each aircraft. I'm guessing we'll see what kind of cargo there's most of on each route so that we can configure the aircraft accordingly? Also, I like it when it's more up to me how the airline develops. I like having options and being able to use different strategies.

But if you decide to go for the allocating partitions option, could you make the cost of reconfiguring the cargo space very low.. or free? I think free would make the most sense, since in the real world you don't really have to change the aircraft itself to carry light, standard, or heavy cargo. (I know pallets aren't included in the cargo model.)

I have a question regarding prices. Will we be able to adjust the price of the cargo (tickets) like we do with pax tickets? I think that would make sense. I know you're working on a new pricing system, but until then it would be great if we could adjust the cargo price like we do with the different Y/C/F tickets.

[Sami]

Question about the market share charts (route planning, and airport info pages) ... Two separate charts, one for pax and one for cargo, or some single combined chart of both of these?

Another question. How should the world events affecting pax demand affect cargo levels? (I think it's unnecessary to edit the events to include a separate cargo demand modifier)

could you make the cost of reconfiguring the cargo space very low.. or free?

Yes

Will we be able to adjust the price of the cargo (tickets) like we do with pax tickets?

Yes

[Andre]

Question about the market share charts (route planning, and airport info pages) ... Two separate charts, one for pax and one for cargo, or some single combined chart of both of these?

Another question. How should the world events affecting pax demand affect cargo levels? (I think it's unnecessary to edit the events to include a separate cargo demand modifier)

I think if it's not too much work, it would be nice to see cargo market share in seperate charts. Especially since there will most likely be people running a cargo only airline. If it's a lot of work to make it happen, then one chart for both would work as well.

I think world events affecting pax should affect cargo the same way. Of course things like the bird flu wouldn't necessarily halt pure cargo flights, but since most of the world's cargo is flown in the belly of passenger jets.. it would have an effect on that. I don't know if it's possible to let pure cargo planes escape the effects of such events.

[CarlBagot]

I think they should have separate Market Shares.

As for world events, only those that make sense should apply to both, ie stock market crashes yes, flu outbreak no.

[ZombieSlayer]

Any chance the A330-800neo and -900neo can be included soon? More info is available on them than the 777-8X and -9X.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/passengeraircraft/a330family/spotlight-on-a330neo/

338 - 7500nm range, 339 6550nm. Identical cabin layouts to the 332 and 333 respectively but 14% improved fuel burn. The 330neo will share a type rating the 350 as well!

[EAS66]

Regarding cargo

What happens when you're flying slightly beyond the nominal range of a plane (for instance a L1011-500 on a 5500Nm journey) and are thus limited by pax (which is ok). Does this mean that you will not be able to carry any cargo on that flight? Or would the cargo be limited in a similar way to the pax?

(ie. Total Cargo space available on the long flight - [Pax weight and pax bag weight with number of pax reduced as per existing calculations] - cargo space/weight penalty for overshoot of nominal range = range limited cargo capacity or something like that)

[Tim]

And what about frequency battle? I mean two flights on the same time? It shouldn't affect cargo as much as it affecting passengers now?

[Jona L.]

Hey Sami,

couple of quick questions:

1) -basically same as EAS66's question, just more understandable-
If I fly a plane on a route beyond the nominal range, but due to demand/competition/etc. I don't fill up the PAX cabin, and thus have "open space". Will cargo be transported, or will the system assume, that because I am above nominal range, there is no space for cargo?

2) Which size class can carry which cargo?
As far as I was able to deduce from your preview post:
- small a/c = no cargo
- medium a/c = light cargo
- large a/c = medium + standard cargo
- very large a/c = medium + standard cargo
Leaving "heavy cargo" marked as CAO (Cargo aircraft only) - Is that correct?

3) As visible on your screenshots, will cargo supply by other airlines be visible by class, or is it just visible due to "admin status"? Configurations (i.e. passenger demand by class) is hidden from other airlines, so I assumed that cargo would be treated the same. Which will be the case?

Thanks in advance, and keep up the good work! Great to see there is good progress being made, and that CBD is slowly being put to use

cheers,
Jona L.

[Sami]

Pax comes first and then cargo is loaded. If you have a range of 1000 nm with full passenger load (let's say 100 pax) and you are flying a route of 1200 nm and are limited to let's say 80 pax, then there is naturally no more payload carrying capacity to allocate for cargo. All payload is taken by pax+bags (= very simple). However the cargo allocation is calculated when you assign the flight to schedule and it assumes always a full flight. So if you carry 50 pax instead of the 80 possible there would be theoretically space available for cargo but that's not calculated on the fly on every day (too heavy).

[alex_king92]

I think passenger + cargo planes should take more time on turnaround than pax only.

[elvis141]

What is the time frame in adding cargo flights?

[Jona L.]

I think passenger + cargo planes should take more time on turnaround than pax only.

The times in AWS are already ridiculously long. Most airlines in the real world operate normal schedules completely on minimum turn time.

Yes, AWS uses the actual minimum turn times as given by the manufacturers of the planes, however for the well known "1% delay risk", you need to have extremely long turn times.

To pile up: Real world airlines manage that including cargo.

So, please, tell me why we would need even longer turn times to do something the real world does in less time?

[bdnascar3]

The times in AWS are already ridiculously long. Most airlines in the real world operate normal schedules completely on minimum turn time.

I agree, when I worked for the airlines turning a 737 in 30 mins with, 143 pax, 250bags and 5000lbs cargo and mail on and off was normal and expected.

[Jona L.]

I agree, when I worked for the airlines turning a 737 in 30 mins with, 143 pax, 250bags and 5000lbs cargo and mail on and off was normal and expected.

I worked ramp supervision for 2 years, nothing like turning a 738 in 40 mins (189 pax, 300-400 bags and usually about 1000Kgs in cargo, including human remains -each, both ways). Gotta love LCCs .

But that being exactly the point, it works in real life, and I do understand and somewhat like Sami's approach to it, to give it a certain risk of delay that can be reduced by extending the times. But any longer than that would be overkill.

According to the ground handling manual, Emirates suggests a 77W (777-300ER) at full payload for a full stage flight (-> fuelling time!), be done in 80mins. In AWS you need 90 mins for any 777, and that already gives you a 25% risk of delay. Don't try telling that to EK station reps or their DXB OPS...

[bdnascar3]

Have question on the prices in your example. My understanding is that light cargo (express/mail etc) is the more expensive while the heavier stuff has a cheaper per lb price.

[Jona L.]

Have question on the prices in your example. My understanding is that light cargo (express/mail etc) is the more expensive while the heavier stuff has a cheaper per lb price.

According to the IATA TACT (basically a "suggested retail price" for air cargo issued by IATA) rates for general cargo decrease in per kg (or lb for the British colonies ), but there are special rates offered for certain cargo (or surcharge rates for special cargoes).

- To get to the point, on many routes there are special (usually lower) rates for Mail, Newspapers, etc.

Some carriers offer different prices, depending on the service you book (if you want fast or cheap e.g.).


I can explain this to you in further depth in a PM, if you like, but as for the short version: See above.

cheers,
Jona L.