Changes to rules, slot transfers (to discuss)

[tcrlaf]

while I did propose an auction system, I find all of this discussion about Heathrow slots to be a waste of time.

Heathrow is a money-printing license precisely because of big demand, limited space. And BA doesn't give a damn that Jet Blue can't get any slots at Heathrow. They are going to protect as much of that Heathrow monopoly as they can, as well they should. They were there in the beginning, and they paid for it. That Cameroon Crashing Cattleways can get a once-a-day at Heathrow in real life, while someone like Jet Blue cannot, is a political thing that can't really be modeled in this type of game.

If you want Heathrow slots, be there when they come available, like I have done with the few slots I have, in the games I am currently in.

Frankly, I'm tired of the whining....

[Jackson]

That Cameroon Crashing Cattleways can get a once-a-day at

Cameroon Crashing Cattleways? Never heard of that airline mate. Who are they? An African airline that crashes before getting their cattle to their destination? Do elaborate. 

[Jackson]

I must agree with tcrlaf. I think that the current slot system does not work for mega hubs and believe a special law should be implemented there to allow fairness.

Bidding for slots...YES.

Having to stay up or wake up at unsociable hours or whatever yhe case maybe for the LHR dwellers is not fair.  Some members do not have the time and therefore, once LHR is full, it becomes boring.

Also airlines must be able to buy and sell slots. Come on. Doesn't even need a request. Just as long as it is monitored but not tightly restricted.

And guys. I mean no offence when I say this and I do acknowledge I am not yet skilled enough to base at LHR but no one forced you to start at LHR and your arguements is boring as #@$#. Surely if you bombard Sami with polite requests he will do something about it.

[LemonButt]

Re: auction system or bidding for slots.

I don't know how y'all play the game, but I don't know what times I need slots for until I have a full plane's schedule.  Having idle planes is bad business and sitting around waiting for slots to be won via an auction isn't an option either.  Winning slots at 1000 instead of 1100 changes my entire strategy if I am based at a curfewed airport and flying into a curfewed airport.

Aside from terminals offering an exclusive slot pool to players, the best solution IMO is to have an automated overflow slot pool as I proposed on page 1 of this thread.  Slots automatically expand based on slot consumption and there is no waiting around with a thumb up your butt waiting for everyone to get their bids in.

[Curse]

Good idea, and has been mentioned before, but technically not feasible since this is about ~10 or less airports in each game. (ie. not worth the time and effort?)

The whole bid system is not a good idea anyways, because rich airlines just would purchase those slots away. This might either be a rich LHR-bank-airline itself or some other big fish who then uses the slots himself or transfers them.
Joe Random, flying out of this medium airport and just having a nice time in the game, never will see one of those slots. And you know why I know this? Because I'm one of the big guys who would either make sure the slot prices on such an auction go insanely high or who would simply get the slots myself - and if it's just to block the LHR-bank.


I will come back to the opening post in a seperate answer because it's too important. I just want to show why auction would be no improvement.

[Curse]

[..]

In longer term the slot issues will be alleviated by changes in the demand and airport systems making the world more dynamic and reducing the need for everyone to crowd the same airport. But there still too will be a couple of slot limited airports, and all those things mentioned are still far away anyway ..

[..]

Unfortunately I can't offer you a short and easy solution. However, lots of people (including I) told you about that problem 4 years ago. I don't blame you on that, sami, I just want to remember this is not a new problem that occured over night.


What I see as a problem (and now comes a small blaming part) is how you try to fix this problem. How much time have you invested in the coding of the anti-auto-refresher thing that was used for slots? How much time did you invest in increasing slot sizes and slot costs and adjusting them? And where all this precious time you put in led to? Here, unfortunately.

You fight the symptons and I can understand that. It's maybe the fastest and most cost effective solution for you. But like the fire department that puts fire out by this one pyromanic, this isn't going anywhere.



So, what would be the solution to this is and can only be dynamic (and not just city based) demand!

Please let me explain why:
At the moment we all follow the pattern of real world. In Gameworld #4, 1953, my Los Angeles to Heathrow route offers like 20%-30% of my whole business and first demand. In 1953. When there were, according to the game, no airlines before. Why? Why does Peter Townsend, a citizen of Los Angeles in 1953, wants to fly to London Heathrow? What's his problem with Gatwick? Or with Manchester and then taking a connection flight?

And THIS is where the whole system falls apart.


We as players currentrly only can fit into this. We can't change demands. 1953 could have been the second where San Francisco got the biggest West Coast airport and not Los Angeles. Why is Atlanta so big in AirwaySim? In 1953 Atlanta was a big airport but it becomes good in AWS because it is a hub for several airlines LATER in the real world.


So, to finally fix (and not cut down symptoms) the problems with slots but also with weird demand numbers, it must be up to the players to develop airports and routes. This would give two advantages:
1) No more concentration on the real life big airports. When I would be able to have the same chances out of Kansas City as out of Atlanta or Los Angeles, why would I not try something new? I guess this would be true for nearly all players.
2) No concentration of slots. When player airlines develop their own hubs, increasing route demand because they actually offer services (and not because some non-existant real life airline did) the whole thing will be spread more.


This also includes dynamic airport developement. This means there might (but not must) be a maximum amount of theoretical slots. In some countries more, like the US with the big country or Russia or China, in some countries like Germany those slots might be lower. However, myself I live in the Frankfurt area and if it was a manner of life and death we would cut the curfew and extend the airport - especially prior to the 1980s, when the protests against the airport began. In 1960 NOBODY would have protested against building Frankfurt airport with 6 runways.

So, this dynamic system does not simply follow the rule "Atlanta has every game a maximum of 120 slots, Chicago has 100 slots and New York JFK has 80 slots". It would actually develop when slots run out and there is still growing demand - because a there based airline creates this demand.




That's a (and in my eyes the only) option to solve the problem without fighting symptons, but by eliminating the cause. This is nothing that can be coded in a day, but Sami, remember when we first talked on IRC years ago and you told me about your vision of AWS... are you really going to invest time to code fire departments instead of letting a few houses burn down and catch the pyromaniac I told as an example before?



tl;dr:
Dynamic City based demand
Dynamic airport growth
Dynamic route growth

[Jona L.]

Having to stay up or wake up at unsociable hours or whatever yhe case maybe for the LHR dwellers is not fair.  Some members do not have the time and therefore, once LHR is full, it becomes boring.

If you don't have the time, don't do it, simple as that. If you have alliance members that have time, and are willing to buy slots to transfer to you out of courtesey or as part of a deal involving reduced a/c prices or whatever, lucky for you. If not, you either have to be there, or don't fly it. Simple as that. It has always been like that, and frankly I don't see the problem.

I used to play from LHR myself, but I was in school back then, and had at LEAST 16h/day time for AWS. Now that I work, I have no time for LHR slots, so I don't play it anymore. I try to get my share of slots in LHR early game, when chances are good I find some, and later on it simply is: "use what I have".

The success of a company real world and AWS is dependant of the time and effort a player (or the staff of a company) put in. If you have a great deal of time to invest, it is only fair, that you get a great deal in returns on investment i.e. slots --> cash.


I'd have another idea to reduce the amount of LHR slots being used up unnecessarily, but I bet I will be hunted out of town for it. However I do propose it here now:

BAN SMALL A/C IN LHR. In early games where your biggest planes available are 100ish seats the minimum size should not be too high, but e.g. DC-3 or smaller (<30 seats) could be banned. Later on in the game like speaking 2010 ish one could raise that limit to 120 seats (so 737/320 or bigger required).

Same as there is a list of planes to operate into LCY, there could be a list of planes NOT allowed to operate into LHR.


cheers,
[SC] Jona L.

[Sami]

That's a (and in my eyes the only) option to solve the problem without fighting symptons,

The potential new dynamic systems are still far in the pipeline, so in the meantime the current system has to work. That's what this thread is about (and that's also why any slot auction system won't be made; since while it would help today, it's not that relevant in the future and requires much effort to build  .. (and the auction wouldn't have been who bids the highest anyways)).

(dynamic airports is a separate matter, while linked to dynamic demand too, and it has its own thread in feature rq forum too. It's thought out rather well already and is probably the first to be implemented .. the whole dynamic world is a matter of many pieces, so don't be fooled by the yelling of "city based demand" since that alone solves nothing, it's just one piece in a ~10 piece puzzle of larger features)

BAN SMALL A/C IN LHR. In early games where your biggest planes available are 100ish seats the minimum size should not be too high, but e.g. DC-3 or smaller (<30 seats) could be banned. Later on in the game like speaking 2010 ish one could raise that limit to 120 seats (so 737/320 or bigger required).

The new world excluded, are there really that many regional (props) flying into LHR to make any difference. I would guess no.

[Jona L.]

(dynamic airports is a separate matter, while linked to dynamic demand too, and it has its own thread in feature rq forum too. It's thought out rather well already and is probably the first to be implemented)

That actually sounds good, and seems, as Curse worked out before, the best way to fight the cause rather than the symptoms.

The new world excluded, are there really that many regional (props) flying into LHR to make any difference. I would guess no.

Probably not, but I remember times where it was the problem. I haven't focused any much on LHR in the last year or so, since I don't play from there anymore.

[Curse]

The potential new dynamic systems are still far in the pipeline, so in the meantime the current system has to work. That's what this thread is about (and that's also why any slot auction system won't be made; since while it would help today, it's not that relevant in the future and requires much effort to build  .. (and the auction wouldn't have been who bids the highest anyways)).

I know, Sami, I know, and I'm aware of the fact you're working on that. I just felt it is necessary to say I don't see how to draw off your attention from this by coding another symptoms fix could help.

Honestly - we lived with the current downsides for years now. Some, myself included, quit due to this. But still sometimes it's better to let a half-way working thing going and make a much better new one than trying to fix the old one.

If you really want to implement a fast resolution, increase slots to 300% or whatever. I don't think this will fix the problem at all, but seriously, you would just invest like 10 seconds to change that database entry and not waste hours and hours and hours. Those hours are better to invested in city based demand and while - shame on me!!! - I didn't participate in filling up the world with it as much as I could, I think the gathering work is mostly done.

When you release this awesome thing in - I don't know, some month? a few years? - this discussions stops anyways.

[mavi]

As far as fixing slots goes in the current system, how difficult would it be to implement the "call" function like on the used aircraft market, along with a maximum number of slots acquired per 8 days.  

Otherwise, I'm with CUR$E.  The system is flawed, but most fixes would be difficult to implement and not really fixes. 

[Zombie Slayer]

Anything short of City Based Demand is nothing more than a band-aid on top of the band-aids already applied to the situation. This is a business simulation, so putting a quota in place takes free market away and creates a communist environment. The blind auction system could work, that may be the best non city based demand solution I've read, but even that favors airlines with cash.....

[mavi]

Anything short of City Based Demand is nothing more than a band-aid on top of the band-aids already applied to the situation. This is a business simulation, so putting a quota in place takes free market away and creates a communist environment. The blind auction system could work, that may be the best non city based demand solution I've read, but even that favors airlines with cash.....

Given that slots are currently used to exclude competition, calling a quota system "communist" is a bit extreme.  A quota system would foster, not inhibit competition.  No capitalist country in the world permits the extreme examples of slot hoarding that go on in airwaysim.

Now, because airwaysim is a game, not real life, most slot quota systems would be a bad idea in my opinion, causing more problems then they solve.

[Sami]

As far as fixing slots goes in the current system, how difficult would it be to implement the "call" function like on the used aircraft market, along with a maximum number of slots acquired per 8 days.  

The calls wouldn't really add anything meaningful, since (talking of alliances mainly) when one sees the new open slots he can let his friend know that his favourite airport has now slots so whydontyamakeacall ..

[meiru]

something that would solve this problem a little bit is the city demand... or, at least some little "demand transfer" between specific airports like in London... we all know EGLL is a big airport, but if you don't get the slot and you fly from an other London airport and have the same chance to get the pax... then I don't have to fly to EGLL...

[schro]

Given that slots are currently used to exclude competition, calling a quota system "communist" is a bit extreme.  A quota system would foster, not inhibit competition.  No capitalist country in the world permits the extreme examples of slot hoarding that go on in airwaysim.

Now, because airwaysim is a game, not real life, most slot quota systems would be a bad idea in my opinion, causing more problems then they solve.

Communism is a form of government that dictates central control of all resources. Socialist is the better word to describe it, at least with respect to the rewards that someone can reap now with putting in time, planning and skill to obtain the slots needed to be successful. To make a quota would be handing over the slots that should be "earned" by those who make the effort to those who do not take the effort to plan for slot acquisition.

With regards to slot hoarding, there are very few airports in the world that are severely limited based upon them. In many cases, there are capitalist countries with socialist policies that restrict free competition to the airports. HND comes to mind as one where the government will not allow carriers to compete with the national carriers. I also think it is short sighted to say that airports are not dominated by a single airline in real life. ATL, DFW, DAL, MIA, DTW, SFO, DEN, IAH, etc come to mind in the US, while none of those other than SFO are slot restricted, the incumbent airlines have made it virtually impossible for life as a new entrant. In ATL, Delta hogged all the gates and blocked expansion - southwest had to buy airtran to gain access. Southwest is gate hogging at DAL, AA is driving up costs at MIA for others, etc... You could go on with foreign airports in the same manner...

[Curse]

The difference is: In real life there would be alternatives. If I would have the money and the will to open up new gates for example at DAL I guess this would work. In AWS you are screwed when the slots are gone.

That's why I'm such a big follower of the dynamic thing.

[meiru]

In AWS you are screwed when the slots are gone.

yes, but a little less with some sort of city demand...

[schro]

The difference is: In real life there would be alternatives. If I would have the money and the will to open up new gates for example at DAL I guess this would work. In AWS you are screwed when the slots are gone.

That's why I'm such a big follower of the dynamic thing.

The Wright Amendment disagrees with you adding more gates at DAL ;-)

[tcrlaf]

Cameroon Crashing Cattleways? Never heard of that airline mate. Who are they? An African airline that crashes before getting their cattle to their destination? Do elaborate. 

Call it what you will, such as African Flaming Death Airways, Lawn Dart Airlines, WeFly-YouDie, whatever. Some Heathrow slots are reserved for African One-foffs, or at least used to be. They were used as a function of politics, not financials.