Is Airway sim dying?

[ARASKA]

Yes, that indeed.

I will need a few days with this coding and then I am a bit wiser.

First test version (with no passenger preference to anything yet) was run last night, and at least the bugging memory leak problem (that caused the two MT6 time freezes) is ok, and the process runs also at least 30% faster (means more server calculation capacity). I am building it with the provision of pax connectivity in mind so that it would, perhaps, be able to handle the extra increase in calculations when that feature is eventually added, without the need to recode that module from the scratch again.

I will focus tomorrow on improving the frequency related issues, and after that on he passenger preferences otherwise. (all changes will affect only new game worlds, although game engine version shall remain the same due other reasons)

Anyway, if I run into delays/problems, some small regional game world with existing systems will be set up to gove some time. But I am wiser on these perhaps mid next week so bear with me... And MT7 plans will be announced by then, latest.

Does this count as mid next week now? Will we be seeing a small game world or is MT7 coming soon?

[JumboShrimp]

Does this count as mid next week now? Will we be seeing a small game world or is MT7 coming soon?

A beta just started.  When it is finished, MT7 will start...

[Troxartas86]

I keep the game interesting by doing crazy things like my current Soviet planes kick. Since I'm Czech based in JA, I'm going to give LET a shot too in the near future. One thing I'd really love to do that isn't possible right now would be to run a realistic cargo airline flying 20+ year old junkers.

[Talentz]

Yo. How is everyone doing?


Haha, I guess I did hear you Swifty 

Both in reading this thread and the updated V1.3 brings me to think AWS is still going strong. I'm sure us older players have thoughts of doom when it seems like all new faces are around us and the old times feel like there fading. I'm guilty of those thoughts too, however, as Sami points out, its normal for older players to slip away as time passes. It's only natural.

In retrospect, if we had fewer new players and mainly pre-beta/beta/first gen people, then you could make the case that the player base is dying and thus the game as well. Which clearly isn't the deal here.

For us older gen, we have to take everything into consideration. That includes going back to AWS v1 and chart the improvements the game has undergone. Looking through the old beta forum shows just how much AWS has improved and how Sami has listen to our (sometimes selfish) requests. For that, I want to thank Sami for the years AWS has been through and will continue to do so in the feature. 


That said, seems like some of the core issues are still factors within the game. Namely frequency and the strong relationship its has with AWS pax, LOL!!
Something I think we do need to correct once and for all. It should always be based more on CI and price. Making CI more effect while decreasing the benefit of frequency would seem like the easier fix.

The whole tech stop deal I am not sold on unless there have been really major changes in the pax formula calculation. I don't recall having major issues dealing or defending against them. But, if one of you new hot shots wants to prove this strategy to me I'll be glad to put you in your pla.. play against you 


AWS is still the best airline game out there... our community's hard work and efforts show every time Sami posts a new update on the website.


That's something we should all be happy and proud of!


- Talentz

[GDK]

I like your post mr Talentz

[swiftus27]

Haha, I guess I did hear you Swifty 



- Talentz

Star alliance lives?

[aland]

Since the game has become about a few select players spending an incredible amount of time early on using all the exploits in the game to stranglehold every single major base, it seems there's just the "Regulars" playing now.

I haven't seen airwaysim really "grow"

Always two moderately populated game worlds that are the most active, within 5-6 years of game time, the numbers drop off.

So I ask, why not have more game worlds?

Why not make the rules a little more realistic so those of us that don't have hours upon hours to exploit can actually enjoy the game again?

/Rant

It took me a few bad airlines to finally come up with a good one I have nearly always gone bankrupt before but now my airline is valued the 19th highest in the game I am playing. I have based in that airport before and have not had an airline as successful as now so it really just depends on skill, choices and risks and not time. I did not have lots of time to play at the start but still I still have a successful airline and I am definitely one of the regulars.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

It took me a few bad airlines to finally come up with a good one I have nearly always gone bankrupt before but now my airline is valued the 19th highest in the game I am playing. I have based in that airport before and have not had an airline as successful as now so it really just depends on skill, choices and risks and not time. I did not have lots of time to play at the start but still I still have a successful airline and I am definitely one of the regulars.

Bearing in mind, that your in the beginners world.   

[Troxartas86]

Strangely enough my all-Soviet experiment in DoTM is actually now my longest-lived airline. It's not exactly profitable and it's slowly shrinking but there is no current danger of BK.

[JJP]

Since the game has become about a few select players spending an incredible amount of time early on using all the exploits in the game to stranglehold every single major base, it seems there's just the "Regulars" playing now.

I haven't seen airwaysim really "grow"

Always two moderately populated game worlds that are the most active, within 5-6 years of game time, the numbers drop off.

So I ask, why not have more game worlds?

Why not make the rules a little more realistic so those of us that don't have hours upon hours to exploit can actually enjoy the game again?

/Rant

Funny you made a statement like this.  I was just thinking about this the other day.  I left Airway Sim for a long time because of this.  I came back recently because it sounded fun again.  Boy, was I wrong.  Same thing happened just as you described.

Look, online games will always have regulars.  What can keep the newbie and casual players coming back?  Lots and LOTS of game worlds.  This way, the regulars will not be crowding out every single available game world.  It is very, very frustrating for someone like me who can only check my airline once per day (maybe twice if I'm lucky), and then only for an hour  . . . maybe.  

I LOVE the airline industry, and this seems so very intriguing to me, but if something doesn't change the above described dynamic at Airway Sim, I doubt I'll be back.  This probably has happened to scores (hundreds?) of new players who were scarred off because of the uber-competitve, super-veteran players that play in every game world (not that you guys don't have a right to . . . just saying).

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, so maybe all the fan-boys have already blasted it to h***.

I don't think so, I certainly hope not : I have started playing in the last month or so and intend to stick around a bit longer.

I do think it needs to evolve though : that's not a criticism, just a reflection of the fact that games cant stand still or they do stagnate a bit : That can happen when, after a year or two, the game mechanics and foibles become known to the point where experienced players can follow a formula/strategy and always 'succeed', (kinda like the 'walk-thru' mode in some games: turn left, turn right, pick up the rock, jump down and hey presto: find the goody-bag) whilst other strategies will always be doomed to abject failure due to those same mechanics and foibles (e.g. trying to run a local operation with sub-20px planes).

So, I would say that a game which ends up having only one (or two) path to longevity, where all have to do the same or perish, can become a bit repetitive and also 'lock-out'   players who maybe just want to 'dabble' with a smaller operation, or perhaps role-play a little with say, running a Caribbean island -hopper service or similar.

How you can accommodate such differing game-styles and have them still workable in a single game-world is another matter. But I would say the 'one-size-fits-all' staffing algorithm needs, politely speaking, a damn good tweaking.

Totally, totally, TOTALLY agree.

[swiftus27]

Call me a 'fan-boy' all you want ... go count the number of games I am playing in...  You need the 'fan boys'.  Go look at the Test Game thread.  It's these same people who are running their own tests, making spreadsheets, testing all the possible variables.  You need them.  They are doing their best to make the sim better for all of you.   These are de facto beta testers who are literally paying to do it for Sami et al.  

Do I think that there needs to be more game worlds, absolutely.  After flunking out in JHN, I have been mentoring off and on since.  

But don't be so quick to demonize the more hard core players.  The sim is doing its best to make sure the game is fun and competitive for all.   There are no micro transactions to help certain people.  Every game, every one has the same chance.  Sure experience plays a role, but older players fail alot too.  

Much of what you are complaining about above is being worked on right now.  Sure, some players love to go to the same airports and fly the same way.  They know exactly how to do it and I am sure it makes them hard doing it over and over.   We helped fix 'Magic Carpet'... not let's fix "Narrowbody-Frequency-Pwn". 

[lilius]

Im really happy about the currrent changes. Maybe it will need some tweaking and experimenting before its optimal but it will stir things up alot and will bring some new dynamics. So to me its not dying no.

As someone already wrote this game is alot about how much time you spend on it more than anything. Therefor its difficult to get angry at the competitor winning. He is just showing who is the bigger nerd.

[JJP]

Call me a 'fan-boy' all you want ... go count the number of games I am playing in...  You need the 'fan boys'.  Go look at the Test Game thread.  It's these same people who are running their own tests, making spreadsheets, testing all the possible variables.  You need them.  They are doing their best to make the sim better for all of you.   These are de facto beta testers who are literally paying to do it for Sami et al.  

Do I think that there needs to be more game worlds, absolutely.  After flunking out in JHN, I have been mentoring off and on since.  

But don't be so quick to demonize the more hard core players.  The sim is doing its best to make sure the game is fun and competitive for all.   There are no micro transactions to help certain people.  Every game, every one has the same chance.  Sure experience plays a role, but older players fail alot too.  

Much of what you are complaining about above is being worked on right now.  Sure, some players love to go to the same airports and fly the same way.  They know exactly how to do it and I am sure it makes them hard doing it over and over.   We helped fix 'Magic Carpet'... not let's fix "Narrowbody-Frequency-Pwn". 

Swiftus, veteran players (I've actually been here longer than you and many other veterans) do not necessarily = fan boys (I was not calling you a fan-boy personally either).  When I spoke of "fan-boys", I meant those who do very well using the same tired formula (discussed here ad nauseum) and do not want anything to change because they like success and they like how they achieve it in this game in its current state.   And, for the record, I certainly do not begrudge the work you (and others) have contributed to this game.

Having read the thread, there really seem to be very few who feel that way, and I appreciate yours (and others) who have offered support of change, especially in regards to the number of worlds.  This, I feel, would be one of the single greatest helps for this great sim.  Sami said it himself that adding hardware would be relatively cheap and easy.  Why not offer 20, 30, or 50 worlds?   Then we wouldn't have all the uber-players dominating every single game . . . especially until the game engine can be updated.
 
Just a thought . . .

Thanks,

JJP

[swiftus27]

I wasn't necessarily responding to you.

Just seems to be a lot of animosity triggered towards some of the people who are doing their best at helping this sim grow.

The same people who will gripe about change are the same ones who cried when their used airplane mods got shut down.   Theyre just mad because they spent hours on spreadsheets to maximize XY and Z.  Now they have to do it again.

Certain people have tried to drag down this community.  They've been shown the door.  This sim isn't about dominating, to me... but to some it is.  I certainly can run 752s out of EWR... or A320/737s out of ORD...  They need to be combative and love to be argumentative.   

[Kadachiman]

20, 30 or more game worlds would actually kill this Sim.

Why?
Heaps of Game Worlds means that everyone can be a winner no matter how bad your strategy may be as there will be a lot less competition per game world (simple maths of players vs.  worlds) which would lead to lack of challenge, boredom and no fun.

It does not matter what online game you play there will always be the group of players who dominate the game as that is where they chose to focus their spare time (is it wasted time? not to them it's not and it is their choice) that is a part of life.

If you relate this to sports - there is a group of players who are elite at their chosen sport (Olympics just around the corner) and they will always dominate sports, so does that mean that the rest of us should not play sports, or should we make the rule makers change the rules so that we can beat the elite? Which will never happen as another group will set up and dominate...human nature at work. (e.g. let's amputate one of Beckham's legs so that we stand a chance of matching him at football...sounds stupid? yes....but that can be related to how some people want to change the rules of this Sim to be in their favour)

Is this Sim perfect?
No, and I am sure Sami will be one of the first to say this. But I believe that he does a great job and has given us a fantastic Sim to play, and even more important he doesn't just sit back and say 'job done' he actually actively continuously improves this game for us all to enjoy.

So in summary, with Sami's approach of continuous improvement, this Sim will never die.

[JJP]

20, 30 or more game worlds would actually kill this Sim.

Why?
Heaps of Game Worlds means that everyone can be a winner no matter how bad your strategy may be as there will be a lot less competition per game world (simple maths of players vs.  worlds) which would lead to lack of challenge, boredom and no fun.

I completely disagree.  That is an absolutely elitist thing to say -that, if people don't play as well as you, they have no business enjoying the game.  That is hogwash.  The community of people who are interested in this type of sim are not all hardcore, can spend hours at the game type of players.  I am a father and husband with a full time job who happens to have a hobby interest in airlines.  I love to role-play, set my own little personal goals in the game, and have a little friendly competition.  I love to casually play and spend ~30 - 60 minutes per day managing my airline and developing strategy.  So what if my strategy isn't as good as yours.  I can't have fun at the game too?!

I do not have the time (or patience) to play for keeps by spending hours on end developing THE best strategy possible to find every loop-hole in the game to exploit.  For me, the sim is not about dominating the entire continent or world and seeing how many airlines I can destroy.   If that's what you like, that's fine.  I have nothing against it. I am only saying that there is a market for the casual gamer (as others have mentioned in this thread) who would like to dabble in the world of airlines and have some good ol' fashion comradery fun.  

This whole notion that the nature of business is to have a constant turn over of players -win some, lose some- is hogwash.  I would be willing to bet that the reason why so many come and go is specifically because they get scarred off by worlds completely dominated by veterans who totally know exactly what to do to dominate the game.  There is no place for these newer players to get into and enjoy the game (yes, yes, I know: there are stories of you who "just started" who do absolutely great at the game -I'm talking about the vast majority).  Heck, there's hardly a place in these games for people like me who have been around for quite some time but are casual gamers.

Look, I don't want to make this about those gamers who dominate the game.  That's fine.  I have no problem with that.  Simply provide enough worlds where ALL of us have a place where we can enjoy the game the way we like (or are able) to.  I can almost guarantee you, Sami, that you would start seeing your subscription rates start to go up (slowly at first) almost exponentially.  No need to dumb down the game; simply add enough worlds where (a) you don't have to wait 3 months to start a new game, and (b) not every single game world is dominated by veteran players.

Just 2 cents from a casual gamer who happens to love airlines and commercial aircraft . . .

[Kadachiman]

if people don't play as well as you

Geez, I wish this part was true :-) Maybe you should have checked on my airline first..lol
I go B/K more often than a Chapter 13 USA real airline....hahaha


I am not going to argue with you as you are obviously a very experienced and respected player, so let's just say that we have a different opinion on how Supply and Demand works :-)
My view - oversupply of game worlds would kill the game as there would be very little if any challenge so no point in playing - and yes maybe its elitist view - sorry
With your view - my opinion is that every game world would be like playing a Beginners game world...too easy and boring

But I enjoy strategy games and play them for the challenge of 'beating the strategy' so yes agreed...my view is coming from a different angle.

[JJP]

My view - oversupply of game worlds would kill the game as there would be very little if any challenge so no point in playing -

You're assuming an under-supply of players . . . 

[Sami]

Just a small comment... Do you really need to use THAT much time to make the airline work?

To what I have played, smallish airlines with a fleet of <20 planes, my time usage in game worlds has been perhaps 30 mins per day on the first few days when it gets started and then 10-15 mins per day - or less even, and everything is still fine there.

One solution to that time problem, if others feel it too, is to increase the game day length when things happen more slowly. (have "slow" and "fast" worlds, fast being around current 30min per day)

[esquireflyer]

Just a small comment... Do you really need to use THAT much time to make the airline work?

I think it does take hours per day (especially when your bases are being attacked by players who also spend hours per day).
For me, the time is spent looking for good used planes, researching and adding new routes (since my old ones are getting copied and hammered), readjusting and optimizing my schedule (to squeeze in more frequencies on a competitive route, or increase aircraft utilization by adding more routes), looking for slots at profitable but overcrowded airports (LHR), and avoiding the tax man.

In particular, the "looking" for highly coveted things such as newer, fuel-efficient planes on the used market; or slots at LHR and old HND, etc. takes a long time, and players who only log in once or twice a day can survive but will not have a chance competing head-on against people who are online for most of the day. And when one of those players invades your base(s) and/or tries to BK you, you have to fight them head-on and can't just "play your own game."

Tax management is also much more easily done by players who are online often and can keep track of their profits at end of the calendar month. The airline that avoids tax withholding up front is going to have a significant advantage over the airline that gets a big tax refund but loses the money until refund day.