Feeling Let Down, Cheesed Off and Out of Pocket!.

[sadanorak]

Hello,

   I'm not one to usually complain, however I do feel severly let down with AirwaySim since recently
joining the game worlds.

   Having played the Demo game ( in a fashion ), I wondered how anyone could amass so many millions
in just one week of game play considering that we are all supposed to be novices? Anyhow I was bitten
by the bug and with hopes of grandure as to the Business Empire that lay ahead I signed up, duly entered
my credit card details and sat back to enjoy the Aviation world.

   My choice of arena was Beginners World 11, the emphasis being so I thought on the word Beginner.
By the time I joined the game it had been playing for some time, but I did find myself a nice start base
with various airlines using, but nobody based at. Shortly after setting up I was joined by another airline
who just went about their business like myself, but then We were joined by another Airline who had
obviously used up all the slots at their airport and were going to start  taking over the world, to this I
mean they didn't really start any new route of their own, they just LEACHED that of others by placing
flights 10mins ahead and 10mins after our flights, I move to a new route, they do the same. Now I know
some will say thats what real airlines do, ( Fair Comment ), however I was forced to move and Start again,
and after a short while along came this airline again and yep, bang went my income so I moved again
and same thing, up to the point I exhausted my re-starts.

   MY GRIPE IS THIS:.... This Person has been with AIRWAYSIM for a very Considerable Time, so why are
they playing in Beginners world?. I can't get back in to play unless I wait 5 months, but somehow don't
think that this person has been away for that time!.?

   I have been forced to join Dawn of the Millennium, its 1989, I wasn't able or so I gather to check in
any detail as to whether this game had slots at airports to use or a huge concern is the drastically
unrealistic passenger demands between certain airports, I understand the game would be boring if
it were so easy, BUT COME ON, it seems silly, I'm now in a game where I can't go any where
because there aren't any slot's or no passengers, making this game a no go.

   I wasn't warned when I parted with my Credits that the game world was all but in-practical
for me to join.


   I joined AirwaySim after frequently seeing an advert in a Reputable Airline magazine, I never thought
I would be paying out not to be able to play or just simply to be bullied by sombody who clearly
has been playing the game for some considerable time and gets their kicks out of seeing off
those who dare try to join this game world to have fun.

   I realise I have said some stern things, but these are my opinions, nobody elses, HOWEVER, I
would like to be CORRECTED in my opinions, Constructifully rather than Sarcasticly, and would like
to be guided in the way the game is played. I do Know that this is supposed to be a game
of Stratergy, but it is also supposed to be fun and hopfully addictive.

   THANK YOU for reading my concerned rants. I would like to think that this is a Genuine Forum
where peoples views can be correctly addressed, and I look forward to your Guidance.

I shall now step down from my soapbox.

Cheers,

Steve.

[NorgeFly]

Sorry your experience of AWS so far has not been the fun you expected. Unfortunately, some players do get kicks out of making it hard for new players. If indeed one player did follow you around and replicated what you were doing to make it hard for you to get a foothold, then they are breaking the rules - the game developer frowns upon such tactics so it should be reported.

However, it is possible to start a game half way through as you have with Dawn of the Millennium. It is tricky sometimes, but of you spend some time looking for a small or medium size airport that is a little under the radar you can build a reasonable airline. Obviously, the big airports will be hard work for the reasons you stated (slots, competition etc). As you're a new player you should focus on learning the workings of the game which you should have been allowed to do in the Beginners game, so the big competitive airports should be avoided.

Don't write off AWS just yet... if you give it time and patience I am sure you can enjoy like many of us do 

[Jps]

Likewise, sorry to hear about your bad experiences.
Like NorgeFly pointed out, it is forbidden in rules to purposely open new bases/routes just to drive (new) companies bankrupt. So you might wish to report the player in question to Sami and tell closer about your experiences. Unfortunately, there likely will be no consequence for now, since you have already left the game world and have no proof, but perhaps you might be able to help new players by asking Sami to keep a look out for the player.

As for joining existing worlds, it is a continuing debate whether it's doable or not. The main things people have suggested in succeeding include:
- excellent expense management (this includes sticking to 1 fleet type, keeping staff/salary as low as possible [100%, manual], only leasing 'cheap' aircraft, etc. )
- small enough airplanes (ATR or the like is dynamite when competing against jets)
- frequency (fly to as few destinations as many times as possible - when you fly there more frequently than your competitor, the more pax you'll get from him)
- keeping ticket prices on standard (of course, ~-10% initially when RI < 100%)
- reasonable marketing (CI of 30-50 should be sufficient. The fewer destinations you have, the cheaper the marketing and greater the effect for same money)

There are a lot more, but those are what I can think to be the most viable ones to think about. When choosing your base or aircraft, use the strategies mentioned in the Manual and forums.

Finally, about the improvements you mentioned...
It's been suggested, that players be able to see the world they are about to join before they pay, but there's no mention from Sami whether he'll implement that.
And, currently, a new passenger demand model is being created, which should give a much more realistic passenger figures, and perhaps even connecting passengers. More about this on the Features- section of the forums.

I hope you'll have a great experience here from now on, and feel free to ask anything that's still bothering your mind!

[Sami]

AWS is still pretty much my personal project, and I've been developing it for many years now. And it's of course always sad to see someone who hasn't been satisfied on what the project has been able to offer .. Though as you may know this isn't a completely finished project by any means yet since new features and refinements are made all the time.

Some answers:

- Beginner world may be joined by players who have not played in any AWS game worlds recently. The date of registration to the site is irrelevant, but the system rather looks at your actual play history at the site.

The restriction to BW scenarios is: "You can only join this game world if you have played in the Free Trial (demo) game world, or you have played in previous Beginner Worlds only for a limited time (less than 5 weeks), or you have last played AirwaySim over 5 months ago."  (copypaste from the error message that 'experienced' users see)

In other words the guy may have been absent from AWS let's say 6 months, and then he is entitled to join the BW again. But for the record; the game rules state that deliberately targeting other airlines with the aim to bankrupt them is not allowed (ref: https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/#Competition ); so a report to us would have been appropriate. But since that's too late now you could at least PM the player's details to me and I can take a quick look at his operations.


- For the remark about route demands, I don't see the point really since you didn't give any specific details. The DOTM game world happens in the past, 1989, so the general allover air travel demand is much lower than in 2010 for example. Secondly there is no possibility to simulate all of world's air routes with realistic pax demands, and that is not the intention either (some routes have actual real data in the background while majority is purely calculated from various data elements that we have).


- You do have the option to check for available airports (slots & number of airlines there basically) but the ability to do this before committing to join the world is still lacking; and it has been requested some months ago. The whole process of creating an airline will go thru some changes in next version and it would be suitable to implement the 'world preview' to this same change too I think, but I have not drafted plans for it yet.



---
edit: seems that I repeated what others said. Should read the replies first..  

[sadanorak]

Hello,

   Thanks Guys for the positive replies. It says a lot about a Forum and a Game when people
take the trouble to reply in a genuinly concerned way rather than to rant back with
" well thats the game " etc.

   I realise after the event I should maybe have complained, but as I said " I'm not one to complain ",
but I do realise that re loadings etc all take time to iron out, I just thought I suppose that
I could just jump in and become another Freddie or d***ie, but I guess they had their ups
and downs as well, so I shall dust myself down and and soldier on. From little acorns......
or so my granny used to say just prior to being sectioned.

   Once again Guys Thanks a lot ( its not every game that the boss gets involved in ), Your
re-assurance is great, the game is great and I need to walk before I can run. I look forward
to playing once again, and who knows my airline may be coming to an airport near you soon.


Cheers,

Steve.

[castelino009]

Hello,

   Thanks Guys for the positive replies. It says a lot about a Forum and a Game when people
take the trouble to reply in a genuinly concerned way rather than to rant back with
" well thats the game " etc.

   I realise after the event I should maybe have complained, but as I said " I'm not one to complain ",
but I do realise that re loadings etc all take time to iron out, I just thought I suppose that
I could just jump in and become another Freddie or d***ie, but I guess they had their ups
and downs as well, so I shall dust myself down and and soldier on. From little acorns......
or so my granny used to say just prior to being sectioned.

   Once again Guys Thanks a lot ( its not every game that the boss gets involved in ), Your
re-assurance is great, the game is great and I need to walk before I can run. I look forward
to playing once again, and who knows my airline may be coming to an airport near you soon.


Cheers,

Steve.

Hey Steve,

sorry to hear that you had some bad experiences mate, but as all said, hang in and play a few demos and you will ove this game. Need any help, just PM any members who have been long enough (like us) or just post a thread as you did.

Help is never far and slow here. Feel free and PM us, hope you enjoy the game. One more suggestion (personal) mate  don't start where you heart is- start where there is potential and money (that's what I have personally experienced here).

Good luck, all the best.

Cheers
VJC

[RushmoreAir]

One more suggestion (personal) mate  don't start where you heart is- start where there is potential and money (that's what I have personally experienced here).

Some of the most important advice on this board.  My first game, I started in Rapid City, SD (my hometown).  Big mistake.  Another game, I ordered 50 Antonov 140s (I'm 1/2 Ukrainian).  Also a big mistake.  Ruined my airline.  And, you can't have your dream airline dominate at Heathrow or Frankfurt.  There's no chance of that.  Choose a smarter base, and order smart aircraft, and you'll do great.

[Zabuti]

Hey

Like others said before, there is way to succeed in AWS even when you are entering a fierce world. I joined the Modern Times 3, and it's been some time since I last played AWS, so I needed a bit of re-adaptation time.

The best advice I could give you when you want to develop in a crowded game is to enter it with a given base, analyze what the game world looks like and then close it for a more valid one.

Second thing, and key in AWS : Long-haul flights (more than 2000 nm) generate much more income than short-flights for an identical period of time. Therefore, you should base yourself at a long-haul distance of a big airport (so that you have a lot of route demand), and develop through it with one used long-haul aircraft. Develop this route first, and expand afterwards. That's a good starting point.

I found a secondary airport in Japan. Nowadays, I'm rising nicely even if there is a tough competitor there. It's all a matter of expense management and which routes to offer. Really, you can make it.

good luck

[ACDennison]

Just to let you know it can be done even mid-game with a little luck and a couple of learning experiances - and that although long-haul is great there are oppotunities to make some very nice regional airlines - here is my potted history (I started this game cycle, a couple of months back):

1st ever airline, DotM early 1983 - GoFly UK - London Luton, flying some horrible russian props and a knackered 707B - crashed and burned

2nd, DotM late 1983 - SkyFly EU - Faro (Portugal) - did ok using HS 748s and 727-200Adv- made some horrible miscalculations on a second base, burned

3rd, DotM 1988 (!) - Air Bahr Al-Ahmar - Hurgarda, Egypt - grew very quickly with ATPs and BAC 1-11s, just opened a second base using EMB 120ERs

Good luck!

[JonesyUK]

   Thanks Guys for the positive replies. It says a lot about a Forum and a Game when people
take the trouble to reply in a genuinly concerned way rather than to rant back with
" well thats the game " etc.

I think that's partly down to your well reasoned post rather than ranting and using Caps like most do

[LostInBKK]

I personally would like to see a ranking system where you can see how good players are. This would allow games to also be ranked were the really top players can not play in the game world and thus give us little people more of a chance. I am not sure how easy or difficult it would be to implement as the better players should be rewarded for their skill as well.

One tip I do have for sadanorak is to message players in the game and ask them questions. Example: I asked Tiger Wong who is based in Tampa in Modern Times 3 why he was only flying one type of aircraft and why he picked that type of aircaft. He came back with a very nice reply explaining why to me and it great helped me in the game. Of course I had to Bankrupt first as what I was currently doing with my airline was completely wrong   but that is not the point.  

I also think that some people do not know AWS is a game. Example In MT3 I am based at Fort Myers and I was flying to Atlanta as there was passenger demand and its only 500 miles away. A few game days later JumboShrimp had ramped up his flights to Fort Myers meaning there was no passengers left at all. Now I don't know JumboShrimp but I doubt he is a bad person but I do wonder why he felt threatened by a brand new airline flying in to his main hub when his airline is worth over $53 Million and has over 650 planes. How on earth can I as new player to the game hurt him?

Thanks
Lost

[JumboShrimp]

I also think that some people do not know AWS is a game. Example In MT3 I am based at Fort Myers and I was flying to Atlanta as there was passenger demand and its only 500 miles away. A few game days later JumboShrimp had ramped up his flights to Fort Myers meaning there was no passengers left at all. Now I don't know JumboShrimp but I doubt he is a bad person but I do wonder why he felt threatened by a brand new airline flying in to his main hub when his airline is worth over $53 Million and has over 650 planes. How on earth can I as new player to the game hurt him?

By taking slots in his (err... my) airport.  Lack of slots makes people do evil things...

Edit:

I look at it this way: You take away my slots, I take away your profits.  You can find profit elsewhere by returning the slots.  So in the end you can have your profits, and I can have my slots.  If the slots were not a zero sum game, I could live with a few smaller airlines flying into my hub.  But the fact that the slots are a zero sum game forces me to defend them all.

(Well, lately I have been slacking off...)

[LostInBKK]

Sami, JumboShrimp is being horrible to me and not playing nice  

[Sami]

You take away my slots, I take away your profits.  You can find profit elsewhere by returning the slots.  So in the end you can have your profits, and I can have my slots.  If the slots were not a zero sum game, I could live with a few smaller airlines flying into my hub.  But the fact that the slots are a zero sum game forces me to defend them all.

Sorry but what is this?  YOUR slots etc..?

No sir, the open slots are not "your" slots and you have NO right to attack other players just because they have opened a route or base that takes away "your" slots that you may have intended to use in the future.

If your airline does not own & use the slots then they are not yours and you have no right to even consider them yours now or in the future if your airline does not possess them presently! Any unused slots are free and available for ANYONE to take. Simple...


(this type of behaviour in the game is exactly what I am fully against, and it is also against the rules. )

[LostInBKK]

I am not talking about JumboShrimp.

But this is what he has said is the general attitude of players of the game. They don't see that people come late to the gameworlds or that people are not as good at the game as themselves. All they see is a new airline flying to their base. This is completely different to someone starting in the same airport as you at the start of a game when of course its open warfare. It's not the same as larger airline setting a base at your main hub again this is open warfare.

How you police what people are up to Sami is beyond me and not a job I would like. But AWS is very difficult game to get to grips with as n00b if it were not for the invaluable help give to me by Jona L. and jumbo Mouse I would certainly have given up on AWS a few months ago.

I am not talking about JumboShrimp.

[Jona L.]

I am not talking about JumboShrimp.

But this is what he has said is the general attitude of players of the game. They don't see that people come late to the gameworlds or that people are not as good at the game as themselves. All they see is a new airline flying to their base. This is completely different to someone starting in the same airport as you at the start of a game when of course its open warfare. It's not the same as larger airline setting a base at your main hub again this is open warfare.

How you police what people are up to Sami is beyond me and not a job I would like. But AWS is very difficult game to get to grips with as n00b if it were not for the invaluable help give to me by Jona L. and jumbo Mouse I would certainly have given up on AWS a few months ago.

I am not talking about JumboShrimp.

Thanks for the flowers, mate!
You know I like helping others

EVERYONE IS WELCOME TO ASK ME ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GAME I will try to answer it at my best knowledge

regards, and good luck to you all
Jona L.

[ACDennison]

You have to remember an airline that has a base will naturally want to aquire a lot of slots, and maintain the ability to grow.  As such, they may well change strategy to gobble up slots when someone else bases at the airport they are at.

Case in point, I am a late-starter at the moment, from 1988 onward, and therefore a small fish.  Flying Carpets, a huge airline worth 30x my value took a third base and moved in on my airport.  You can bet as soon as they did that I took loans to the hilt, and added a heap of aircraft on any viable route to eat up the remaining slot pool, knowing that if I didn't the slots would very likely be used to compete against my routes, and that I would have no chances to expand at my HQ. 

So small airlines can do it to big ones too

In general though, the best bet is mnot to set up at an airport with an airlien already there, certainlly if they are a larger one.  It just asks for trouble.  Of course, if they move in on you, it is harder, but not as I have shown impossible.

Personally, I would welcome airlines being 'protected' for the 18 months after they start until they are allowed a second base, such that no-one else can move in on them - but then again, some players can FILL an airport in 18 months. So maybe for 12 months... hard to say!

But anyway, competition will happen whenever limited resources are available, and slots are just that - limited. 

[Tujue]

How you police what people are up to Sami is beyond me and not a job I would like. But AWS is very difficult game to get to grips with as n00b if it were not for the invaluable help give to me by Jona L. and jumbo Mouse I would certainly have given up on AWS a few months ago.

There are indeed nice people around. Jona L. helped me in a previous gameworld supplying me with Embraer E-Jets, I'm very thankful to him because of this. Thanks to him, I build up the most successful regional airline I every started.

[Jona L.]

There are indeed nice people around. Jona L. helped me in a previous gameworld supplying me with Embraer E-Jets, I'm very thankful to him because of this. Thanks to him, I build up the most successful regional airline I every started.

You thanked me enough in the game, and playing with you was a pleasure for me.

I hope to see you in coming game worlds also

Jona L.

[JumboShrimp]

Sorry but what is this?  YOUR slots etc..?

No sir, the open slots are not "your" slots and you have NO right to attack other players just because they have opened a route or base that takes away "your" slots that you may have intended to use in the future.

If your airline does not own & use the slots then they are not yours and you have no right to even consider them yours now or in the future if your airline does not possess them presently! Any unused slots are free and available for ANYONE to take. Simple...


(this type of behaviour in the game is exactly what I am fully against, and it is also against the rules. )

Re: Targeting players

When a player already flies 94% of the viable routes from a base and goes up to 95% of the routes, it is not exactly targeting.  It is just normal progression.

Attacking the route with 10s of Dash-8, supplying just under 200% could be considered targeting, is withing the rules, and it is even encouraged by the game algorithms.

BTW, that is not what I am doing on ATL - FLL route.  I am supplying ~100% - 105% of the average demand (below peak Friday demand), and I do so with A320/A321.  That can't be by any definition be considered targeting.

Re: Slots

Slots are a critical asset to have, especially because they are finite.  Pretending otherwise is, IMO, being in denial.

Speaking hypothetically: When you have a 10s of $200+ million aircraft in the order queue, with intention to fly, say from ATL to Narita, shouldn't the player be concerned that he may not be able to use the aircraft because of lack of slots?  Is that against the rules?

Now suppose an "untouchable" new player comes in, hogs the slots in ATL with ATR, Dash-8, EMBs, who is playing within the spirit of the game, the player who wants to fly a very large aircraft from ATL to NRT, or the player who consumes 100s of slots at ATL with small aircraft. End of hypothetical

Speaking about actual game, I fly only large and very large aircraft at ATL, do not oversupply routes, and do not hog slots.  I certainly could, like others do.  If nothing changes with the algorithms (encouraging frequency, slot hogging), I may be forced to join the club...