Giving beginner's a better chance in beginner's world

[Gary]

We all know airlines that start on or close to the day the game world opens have a big advantage.
All of the top 20 airlines started on or about feb 1st.

Compounding this advantage is that the supply of used and new quality aircraft does not come close to keeping
up to demand as more and more players join.
Which results in almost all of the best used aircraft and new aircraft slots being taken by those same airlines that
have the advantage of an early lead.........these early starters might be waiting for only 3-5 months for new aircraft and will tie up aircraft production for themselves by ordering dozens of aircraft at a time.

Those that started playing later on and are around # 60 or 80 or more have to wait much longer ( 8, 12 months & longer ) for new aircraft if they want desirable ones and of coarse this ties up all their money for much longer periods....... most smaller airlines cannot afford to do this.
This also drives up the price on future aircraft, especially in the used market.

This looks like the perfect situation for the early starters, they can almost deny access to the best new aircraft by locking up production slots........ forcing the unlucky ones to fight over the scraps in the used market or stick to small, regional aircraft in the new market.

I've done well considering I started 85th, but now I also have to change my gameplan because of a lack of supply of the new aircraft I was ordering.
But for the majority of players, especially those behind me are not getting anything even close to a
fair chance at this game.
And we all paid the same to play Airway Sim ......... right ?

Now I know there's nothing wrong with being one of those that start early in a game and those that were experienced already knew how to exploit this advantage.
But can't Sami at least give the airlines that join later, the same opportunity with aircraft ?

And maybe have a couple more game worlds.......perhaps one starting every couple weeks or so.

[pavvello]

I joined the game 2 days after you and totally agree with you. I was forced to lease couple of 20 y.o. a/c due to lack of younger. Now I can't even find a 737 or 727 under 17 y. now I have to lease new a/c.


Cal, isn't it similar to your airline logo?

[Gary]

I'd avoid leasing the popular new aircraft because the wait will become too long and tie up all your money that you could be using for something else.
And you should think about fleet consistantcy, another reason pick a new aircraft that might not become hopelessly backlogged ( is'nt popular ).

The used market is still getting worse............I can't believe how bad it's got since I started playing.

Hey, there's always Russian aircraft........I bet the top 20 players won't be going after those !

[pavvello]

In my opinion there are not so many choices. I can't find a substitution for B737.

The used market is going crazy. I had a ridiculous situation with 767. They were offering me this 8 y.o Boeing for over $1,4M a month... when I can lease a brand new 767-300ER for that money.

[ArcherII]

In my opinion there are not so many choices. I can't find a substitution for B737.

The used market is going crazy. I had a ridiculous situation with 767. They were offering me this 8 y.o Boeing for over $1,4M a month... when I can lease a brand new 767-300ER for that money.

Brockers tend to play with that. Wether you buy/lease a new plane you have to wait for its delivery, and its always a longer wait period than an used one.
And if you need that plane straight away, you'd consider it (at least for a 1y lease) while you wait for the new one.

[Gary]

Early in the game there was a good selection of decent used aircraft and they were priced at market value or even a little less.

Now there are usually no decent used aircraft to buy and what's left is priced from 20% to 40% above market value.

And I expect the situation will continue to get worse.

[Daemus]

I just started playing AirwaySim and have been wondering why my airplane choices have been so low for used planes (figured used leased planes were the way to go starting out). After reading around a bit, finding this thread and others, I am feeling a bit better about at least not being alone in my concerns.

Do new factories get built to pick up the demand for planes that are in high demand? Will the problems I have with getting new or used planes, especially ones that are matched up on parts/model for synergy, be solved when a new factory is completed by a manufacturer or am I looking at a continually worsening situation due to stiff production numbers that don't react like they would in real life? I hope someone can give me some good news because this is not a problem I noticed in the demo (though I may not have been aware enough then of the desire I should have for a matching fleet).

[Sigma]

I just started playing AirwaySim and have been wondering why my airplane choices have been so low for used planes (figured used leased planes were the way to go starting out). After reading around a bit, finding this thread and others, I am feeling a bit better about at least not being alone in my concerns.

Do new factories get built to pick up the demand for planes that are in high demand? Will the problems I have with getting new or used planes, especially ones that are matched up on parts/model for synergy, be solved when a new factory is completed by a manufacturer or am I looking at a continually worsening situation due to stiff production numbers that don't react like they would in real life? I hope someone can give me some good news because this is not a problem I noticed in the demo (though I may not have been aware enough then of the desire I should have for a matching fleet).

Monthly production numbers change with demand.  So if a plane is ordered a lot, more are produced in a month, and ordered less, more fewer are produced.  You can see this when you look at the production tables, it gives the production volume by quarter up at the top.

That said, just because a plane is in high demand doesn't mean production is going to be ramped up so that you don't have to wait.  Production queues for aircraft in AWS, just like in real-life, can extend into 3, 4, even 5 years.  That's perfectly realistic and part of the long-term strategy that is required to play the game.  A single game-world lasts many, many months, so you can't expect a plane you order today to be delivered tomorrow.  It might come in 2 or 3 real-weeks from now, even a bit more sometimes.

[ucfknightryan]

The first few years of a game tend to have absolutely brutal competition on acquiring used aircraft, but then the situation usually begins to improve as larger airlines go bust and their aircraft gradually filter onto the market.  Also as the game goes on larger airlines tend to not rely on the used market as much and don't check it as often.

Another minor point is that the mid 90's, where the beginner's game is set, don't have a lot of alternative choices for aircraft available.  This tends to result in longer queues.  In the late 90s and 2000s or the '60s and '70s, you have several more choices that are viable as a short-to-midrange jet, so they each tend to wind up with somewhat shorter queues and you can get aircraft faster by taking a less optimal aircraft.

Also, check production lists after a bankruptcy, they can open up early production slots and those slots can't be used by anyone with already existing orders unless all those orders are for a sub-type that isn't yet certified.

[Daemus]

Sigma, I am aware of delivery times and appreciate the realism of them. While I do get a little itchy to get my next plane in sometimes, I like the waiting as it gives me plenty of time to re-examine the routes I was planning to use it on. I was just more concerned over whether or not production levels would react to the demand. For example, if it takes them 5 years to get a new factory up that adds 17% to the production output, I am more than happy with that - 20 new production slots suddenly being available the next month from a factory that is magically built in a week would definitely detract from the realism. I am glad to hear that production reacts to the demand. Thanks for your answer to this, and a big thanks for your other posts in other threads; I found many of them very helpful.

ucfknightryan, thank you for the bankruptcy idea. I see the messages about companies going bankrupt but didn't think of that as a chance at picking up some fresh used planes. That is assuming the planes hit the market fairly quickly, so I guess that makes me wonder, is there any type of delay from when an airline goes bankrupt to their planes hitting the market (time taken by the bank to sort through things for instance)?

[Sigma]

...so I guess that makes me wonder, is there any type of delay from when an airline goes bankrupt to their planes hitting the market (time taken by the bank to sort through things for instance)?

Yes.  They used to appear instantly and there was a buying bonanza (there also weren't daily/weekly limits on purchases we have now)

Now they are filtered slowly onto the market; normally not more than 3-6 units of a particular model at a time.  And prior to being listed, they receive Checks if needed (often the case when planes are from BKd companies).

Another interesting thing about the market and the AI sellers -- the selling price changes based on demand.  If all A320s are swooped up in seconds, then next week the price for them will be a little higher until eventually people don't buy them as quickly (it reaches a cap).  If planes are listed for a while without selling they were be re-listed at lower pricings or, if a D-Check is due within 2-3 years, the AI seller will do the check and re-list it and see if it sells better.

[theskygeek]

After reading all these I am unsure about joining this game. Or should I wait until a new beginner game starts?

[Daemus]

After reading all these I am unsure about joining this game. Or should I wait until a new beginner game starts?

The current Beginner's Game is fairly new. You would have a long wait until another one started. Get in there and start playing. When I first started I was unhappy with the way the market seemed to work but, after getting a little experience, I now realize that it isn't as bad as I originally thought and that some of the challenge of the game is in not always having the ideal plane available for the ideal price. It would probably be quite boring if you could get the ideal plane whenever you needed it.

[theskygeek]

Ok, Thanks Daemus,
I'll give it a crack.