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Author Topic: infra upgrade : let an airline pay  (Read 420 times)

Offline groundbum2

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infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« on: January 22, 2020, 11:39:28 AM »
so in DoTM I've billions in the bank and have several nearby level 1 airports I can't touch with my (large) 737s.

I would quite happily pay good money to upgrade these to level 2.

So I'd like to ask for a feature request where airlines can pay for level 1->level 2 upgrades. I wouldn't expect any quid pro pro for doing so.

This could be a complicated request with places like Heathrow etc but for now keep it simple L1>L2 for $10M or something.

Simon

Offline Sami

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2020, 01:48:42 PM »
This is technically possible but was left out since didn't think it's a) realistic or b) useful (to spend the time to make the interface). And determining the costs is also a tad difficult. But could be well added if that brings more depth to the game.

Offline Jetsetter

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2020, 03:10:49 PM »
This is technically possible but was left out since didn't think it's a) realistic or b) useful (to spend the time to make the interface). And determining the costs is also a tad difficult. But could be well added if that brings more depth to the game.

There is actually precedent for that. Most airports operate under a compensatory approach where their fees are above and beyond the cost to operate the airport, but there is also a financial setup called the residual approach. Under the residual approach, a cost for the facilities is set, which the airline enters an agreement to pay for. At the end of a financial period, the charges accrued for that cost center that weren't subsidized by revenues from it are borne by the airline.

Most airports now-a-days use a combination of such, but if for example an airline wanted to construct a new, exclusive use terminal, then the residual approach could be applied. The airline gets a new facility and is commercially better off, the airport gets increased revenues from aeronautical charges due to the higher activity levels at the airport, and the customer gets more flights.

Online Mort

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2020, 03:28:32 PM »
I thought it was a relatively common endeavour for large airlines to build/finance exclusive terminals at their hubs?

As a game mechanic, it would probably be best to limit any upgrade capability to airports you have a base at (and X planes in operation?).

Would also be best for player driven upgrades to be restricted if an airport has recently been upgraded, like the automatic ones would be.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2020, 05:33:41 AM »
I'm putting my 2 cents in on this...I've spent the past 5 game years in HaF trying to expand Gary - Chicago from infra1 to infra2 and it's finally happening.  The total cost is easily in excess of $5 billion (my airline is one of the largest in the game with money to burn) between increased fleet commonality costs (adding a 4th fleet since I didn't have any medium freighters) and operating losses.  Since pax demand is static, the densest routes have ~35 pax, but I was still able to grow it from <50k to ~1 million pax/year flying 35 pax at a time.  Since the airport was limited to small/medium aircraft only, the only cargo aircraft available in the game that could fly out of the airport was the Il-114T.  The end result is that it took me basing 98 Il-114 at Gary, driving it up to traffic 4 before it finally expanded.  Operationally, I've lost over $500m over 5 years as the Il-114 pretty much sucks, but is the only option.  Due to weak pax demand and best case scenario being 50% LF with static pax demand, all of my Il-114-100 are earning a gross profit between $0 and $86k per week.  For my Il-114T (max range at full payload = 300nm), they are all earning between $36k and $206k in gross profit per week.  This is also related to a recent request to add non-real life combi/freighters to the game, which is a potential alternative solution to provide small/medium freighters that can "deliver" (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,84518.0.html) and also updating the cargo capabilities of small/medium freighters (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,82176.0.html) as the entire point of me expanding Gary is to 1) increase the catchment radius to 2) compete with ORD on cargo--namely the profitable international and heavy cargo that requires large/very large freighters with a range >300nm (lol).

Based on the newest game worlds, starting infra is based on runway length which puts Gary at infra2 out of the box, but for other airports that players are trying to expand (i.e. Gary has a 2700nm runway and can handle very large aircraft, but would still need to expand) I think it makes sense to allow players to pay for the expansion.  I think the simplest mechanism for this is a prepayment of navigation/landing/slot fees paid to the airport.  Instead of me dying a thousands deaths and spending $5b+ on operations to trigger expansion, I'm pretty sure if I just approached the airport authority with a $100m retainer for nav/landing/slot fees they would have expanded immediately (and would be a noncurrent asset on the balance sheet).  I believe airports do a version of this all of the time--Atlanta spent billions to build a 5th runway based on some sort of financial guarantees that Delta would maintain/expand operations to the point where the money isn't being wasted.

In terms of cost, it should probably be something like $50m to upgrade from 1 => 2 (adding a few gates/jetways IRL) with the expansion from 9 => 10 being something stupid expensive like $10 billion (eminent domain taking out entire neighborhoods IRL) as it will only be used in slot constrained airports by the richest airlines in the game.

Part 2 of this is I have to wait 4 months for the infra expansion to be complete before I can upgrade my base and/or schedule large aircraft as the functionality is blocked.  I have 100+ large freighters in storage that I need to schedule and being able to create those schedules (preplan w/o buying slots) before the expansion is done would sure make life easier :)

Offline Talentz

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2020, 07:31:53 AM »
I think airlines should be able to buy Infa upgrades for an airport up to a certain point.

1-3 should be made available for purchase should an airline wish it (IE: Creating a new HQ). However, past Infa 3 should be left for the system to handle. That would be a fair compromise between the two.


Talentz


(PS: In the GW that just finished, MT, Gary-Chicago was the leading Chicago-area airport in TransCargo... for many years in fact...   :)
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline sanabas

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2020, 07:39:47 AM »
who would pay to go beyond infra 3, anyway? Paying for 2/3 to get large/VL access to destinations I'd cheerfully do. But beyond that, there's no advantage for me. If my HQ is so short on slots that I'd be willing to pay a fortune to add 20/hr with an infra upgrade, then odds are it's high on the list and will upgrade on its own soon.

Offline reedme

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Re: infra upgrade : let an airline pay
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 09:10:36 AM »
who would pay to go beyond infra 3, anyway? Paying for 2/3 to get large/VL access to destinations I'd cheerfully do. But beyond that, there's no advantage for me. If my HQ is so short on slots that I'd be willing to pay a fortune to add 20/hr with an infra upgrade, then odds are it's high on the list and will upgrade on its own soon.

Doesn't increase in infra size increase the catchment for CBD too? (Obviously only relevant to cargo)

 

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