[ok] Allow Med Combi types to carry STD cargo; SM freighters to carry STD cargo

[Talentz]

Sami,

In most RW cargo/combi OPS, our class of "Med" aircraft can and do regularly carry industry standard containers (ULDs). Even most Small class freighters can carry some form of ULD. With the change of VLG aircraft able to carry HC, Med Combi class should be allowed to carry STD cargo too. As the holds can support that type of cargo. Additionally, small freighters should be allow to carry STD cargo.

These changes will allow greater usability with the associated types. It would help foster different types of gameplay and greatly improve the playing ability of said types. Namely the small aircraft class of freighter. Even the most efficient small freighter(s) struggle to provide break-even income results. At most, they add little value to overall fleet types in current form.

Lastly and a bit off OP; We have a noticeably huge gap between alvb med freighters from the F27 (Jan 1973) to the Shorts 360-300F (Jan 1999). If possible, on the next day of Aircraft performance data additions, could you add several 1970s, 80s and early 90s Med freighters?


Talentz

[TheGrew]

I would like to throw my hat into the ring regarding this idea. I think dedicated freighter and combi medium aircraft should be able to carry standard cargo.

[Sami]

Comments or thoughts?

[DanDan]

Comments or thoughts?

well, my thoughts on it:

- in real life, the small and med freighters are used in feeder services only, to hubs... (one could be worried about spamming)

- if you do rerate the planes to carry standard cargo, you could at least in hindsight say that "developing the planes" was a job worth doing, since currently noone uses the planes.

- i think it would be interesting. and yes, if standard cargo are ULDs, then i guess the small/med freighters and combis should be able to do it
(look at this cool 19-seat commuter! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_408_SkyCourier)

- as i stated before in afeature request: i think the categorization of ac in small/med/... is not helpful because it creates enormous gaps in aircrafts appeal along those lines: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,83139.0.html

[MuzhikRB]

may be additional conversions for small Fs - "Standard only"

[sanabas]

Be good to make small freighters & medium combis more usable.

Also think it would be good if cargo cared less about frequency than it seemingly does now.

[DanDan]

Be good to make small freighters & medium combis more usable.

Also think it would be good if cargo cared less about frequency than it seemingly does now.

some good price management features and make it quite price sensitive... that would get those exorbitant profits out of cargo - and stop the spamming of routes with 737 and 757s.

[sanabas]

Would want to avoid micromanaging pricing being too beneficial.

But as someone currently flying a whole lot of double-stopped 732s, they're a bit too effective when there is a competing DC10 or similar.

[gazzz0x2z]

Would want to avoid micromanaging pricing being too beneficial.

But as someone currently flying a whole lot of double-stopped 732s, they're a bit too effective when there is a competing DC10 or similar.

In another era, I flew 321F the same way, and they were just deadly to bigger opposition.

[JumboShrimp]

But as someone currently flying a whole lot of double-stopped 732s, they're a bit too effective when there is a competing DC10 or similar.

Once we have connecting traffic, larger aircraft will benefit.

When a large cargo aircraft is full, it makes insane amount of money.

[JumboShrimp]

Would want to avoid micromanaging pricing being too beneficial.

Agreed.  Without ability to set pricing as a formula (or a macro / script), manual price management of non-inflation adjusted pricing is just a huge waste of time.

[ArcherII]

Once we have connecting traffic, larger aircraft will benefit.

When a large cargo aircraft is full, it makes insane amount of money.

And that would also kill the small plane advantage on long routes.

[Tha_Ape]

I think the big thing is connections:

 - currently, you can spam 737F, A321F, 757PF, whatever, and kill the larger birds
 - on the other hand, small and medium freighters are pretty much useless (while IRL they are very nice feeders, as Dani pointed out)
 - some RL medium can carry even HC, which is not represented in the game (and I accept it in the current design)

However, once connections are enabled, hubs are also de facto enabled, and at this point medium will become useful, as the efficiency of one's hub might very well depend on these. On the other side of things, connections between large areas will be done by VL freighter (there might be some ankle bitter, sure, but at this point he wouldn't be as efficient as he is today).

But to achieve this in an interesting way, I think the hubs should have to ability to some extent to turn LC and SC in SC and HC respectively: thin routes have their interest, thick routes as well, and the concentration effect is also pictured, and the market is divided. And at this point, large freighters like the 757 or A321F are perfect to to point-to-point and compete with the hub system, but can't be used to turn an airport into a major cargo hub without the help of a network of small/medium freighters and would thus be limited to linking cargo-dense areas.

[sanabas]

However, once connections are enabled, hubs are also de facto enabled, and at this point medium will become useful, as the efficiency of one's hub might very well depend on these. On the other side of things, connections between large areas will be done by VL freighter (there might be some ankle bitter, sure, but at this point he wouldn't be as efficient as he is today).

4th fleet issue will make doing that tough. Assuming the cargo can't connect between 2 separate airlines, then it sounds like running cargo effectively needs 2 fleets, and it also means if you want to run cargo, your choice gets more limited, as many really good medium planes don't have a cargo option.

[Tha_Ape]

4th fleet issue will make doing that tough. Assuming the cargo can't connect between 2 separate airlines, then it sounds like running cargo effectively needs 2 fleets, and it also means if you want to run cargo, your choice gets more limited, as many really good medium planes don't have a cargo option.

Currently, you can almost perfectly run a "small regional" pax airline and "small regional" cargo airline at the same time. You sure have some issues here and there, and some concessions to make, but nothing preventing 2000+ a/c airlines behemoth in both categories. I wouldn't be bothered if the limitations between both fields were a little bit harsher to overcome, and if you chose to be a cargo airline you pax revenue would be minor, and vice versa.

About the "2 fleets" thing, no. I mean, I caricatured things a bit. A 757 would still have its place in a cargo airline (not only ATRs and 747), but they wouldn't be the kings they are today.

[ArcherII]

4th fleet issue will make doing that tough. Assuming the cargo can't connect between 2 separate airlines, then it sounds like running cargo effectively needs 2 fleets, and it also means if you want to run cargo, your choice gets more limited, as many really good medium planes don't have a cargo option.

The 4th fleet issue is going to generally dictate whether you want to be a pax airline or a freight airline.

Having said that, the connecting system will also enable to carry a lot of cargo in the belly of your LH airplanes, provided that your SH-MH fleet bring the cargo to the hub.

[Talentz]

Connecting traffic? Were discussing a feature that is further away then CBD-Pax at this point. That might be a alittle to ahead of ourselves atm.

- The goal of this feature request is to make Med Combi and Small Freighters financially viable; in current form, their not.  To better understand the issue, I recommend trying to run a cargo-only airline of small freighters. Even running 4-5 routes with 100% full flights does not generate enough income to sustain overall OPS.

Hence, the request. What would be the point in adding more aircraft if they are not financially viable from the start?



Talentz

[Sami]

Planning to implement this shortly. Time for final objections, if any.

[sanabas]

New worlds only, or existing worlds?

[LemonButt]

Planning to implement this shortly. Time for final objections, if any.

Can you tell us explicitly the planned changes?