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Author Topic: Aircraft allowance on the used market.  (Read 956 times)

Offline [ATA] Frimp

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Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« on: April 02, 2019, 08:46:47 PM »

Currently the game mechanics on all gameworlds are set that we can get 2 aircrafts from the UM per day, 3 per week.
This makes sense early in the game to make sure the big airlines don't grow too fast compared to the others.

However later in the game this becomes a huge barrier when it comes to replacing fleets and also is a barrier for new airlines looking to join and catch up against big airlines.
I would like to request that this allowance increases as years go on.

This helps new airline startups who want to start up and grow (will become much harder this way for established airlines to bully new airlines) and will also allow established airlines to make transitions quicker and keep the game interesting.. Many established players later in the gameworld just run their airlines on autopilot. If suddenly a new player can grow faster (profitably), it could keep games interesting to the end.

My suggestion is based on long gameworld scenarios:

1950s-1969:  2 ac per day / 3 per week
1970s: 2 ac per day / 4 per week
1980s: 2 ac per day / 5 per week
1990s: 2 ac per day / 6 per week
2000s: 3 ac per day / 7 per week
2010s: 3 ac per day / 8 per week
2020s: 3 ac per day / 9 per week
2030s: 3 ac per day / 10 per week.

look forward to hearing people's thoughts.

Offline schro

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2019, 08:57:45 PM »

Offline Mort

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 09:30:42 PM »
Definitely all for well thought out ways of allowing people to join game world's after the start, additional players are always welcome as they progress.

Offline [ATA] Frimp

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 10:35:53 PM »
I had a few thoughts on this a while ago: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,77691.msg457248.html#msg457248

interesting ideas but I think your proposal just favors the bigger airlines and not the smaller ones to start up.
if it's the same cap for everyone then it should simplify things for Sami as well to set it up.

clearly there is a wish from players for some sort of review of the ac allowances from the UM once the game has progressed from the initial stages.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 11:31:38 PM »
At the very least this should be tweaked for privately listed aircraft. I’ve had some pretty crazy backlogs when having other airlines help me with fleet changes and acquisition.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2019, 09:03:33 AM »
interesting ideas but I think your proposal just favors the bigger airlines and not the smaller ones to start up.
if it's the same cap for everyone then it should simplify things for Sami as well to set it up.

clearly there is a wish from players for some sort of review of the ac allowances from the UM once the game has progressed from the initial stages.

And if I may, yours privilege experienced players against newbies. Newbies entering a GW in 1990 will rush in, order so many planes they don't even know how to use, and will go BK in 2 months game time, without even having the time to realize what happened.

I completely agree that increasing the buying rate is necessary in late games (had my own input on that in the other thread), but beware of the negative impact :)

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 01:30:13 PM »
And if I may, yours privilege experienced players against newbies. Newbies entering a GW in 1990 will rush in, order so many planes they don't even know how to use, and will go BK in 2 months game time, without even having the time to realize what happened.

I completely agree that increasing the buying rate is necessary in late games (had my own input on that in the other thread), but beware of the negative impact :)

Yes, that’s a lovely idea as well then. :)

Offline Cornishman

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 10:50:25 PM »

My suggestion is based on long gameworld scenarios:

1950s-1969:  2 ac per day / 3 per week
1970s: 2 ac per day / 4 per week
1980s: 2 ac per day / 5 per week
1990s: 2 ac per day / 6 per week
2000s: 3 ac per day / 7 per week
2010s: 3 ac per day / 8 per week
2020s: 3 ac per day / 9 per week
2030s: 3 ac per day / 10 per week.

look forward to hearing people's thoughts.

Definitely support this.  Hear you on the concerns about newbies rushing in and going BK, then that has to be just another of the many learning curves for newbies... we can't go making the game work along the lines of what newbies need i.m.o.  :D

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 07:22:51 AM »
Definitely support this.  Hear you on the concerns about newbies rushing in and going BK, then that has to be just another of the many learning curves for newbies... we can't go making the game work along the lines of what newbies need i.m.o.  :D

While I agree that we don't have to make a game for the newbies, we also don't have to make a game against the newbies. So if some negative aspect can easily be avoided, why not do so?

In my opinion, the fact to limit the growth of the purchase limit to privately listed a/c already helps. Because in this case they need to take action, to cut a deal, and we can hope that the seller/lessor would be kind enough to tell the guy he's making a mistake.
Plus, no one likes when ones planes return after two years with 65% condition.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 08:52:42 AM »
Definitely support this.  Hear you on the concerns about newbies rushing in and going BK, then that has to be just another of the many learning curves for newbies... we can't go making the game work along the lines of what newbies need i.m.o.  :D

We all learned the hard way, why change that?

Offline MikeS

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 02:33:17 PM »
I agree, it is too slow for larger airlines as is (especially when seen in conjunction with fleet type restrictions)
Instead of using eras, it could be tied to airline size, eg:
tup to 100 fleet size: 3 aircraft per week
100-200 fleet size: 4 aircraft per week
200-300 fleet size: 5 aircraft per week
...etc

Mike

Offline schro

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2019, 12:39:50 AM »
interesting ideas but I think your proposal just favors the bigger airlines and not the smaller ones to start up.
if it's the same cap for everyone then it should simplify things for Sami as well to set it up.

clearly there is a wish from players for some sort of review of the ac allowances from the UM once the game has progressed from the initial stages.

That's the point of it though - a newly established airline that grows too quickly is generally a safety hazard in the real world. You shouldn't be able to go from 0 to 300+ planes in one game year, which is quite doable with your 2010's numbers at 8 per week (8*52*.66 (to allow for sleeping) = 275 + new orders). A "real" airline would not have the infrastructure/policies/procedures/maturity to handle anywhere near that number of planes. However, an airline that's already operating at the 1000+ aircraft level for a while is more likely to be mature and capable of handling a higher level of onboarding.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2019, 12:57:31 AM »
could I make a suggestion. Manufacturers (Boeing etc) can "push" a plane to a purchasing airline ("A") once it's been ordered and manufactured. Could I suggest that Airline A be allowed to set up a link to a trusted airline, called "B". This link would authorize Airline B to sell any aircraft on it's books to airline "A". It would be like the "push" we have now, and would not come out of the 3/8 allowance as it's a push not a pull.

This would be especially useful during fleet renewals when you get buddies to also order aircraft so you can do a huge fleet replacement quicker. A buddy can just push aircraft to you as they arrive. Means the 3/8 used market slots really can be employed for genuine used aircraft.

Simon

Offline Verto

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2019, 05:43:50 PM »
I really wanted to bump this for visibility.

With fleet sizes in the 500-2000+ range, even staying maxed on the UM allocation you are looking at staying maxed for 5-10 game years... and that is assuming you are online enough to stay maxed.

This really runs contrary to the direction of the game as of late, which is making it more accessible to the less 'power user'.

I do think there needs to be some tweaking of the UM limit - either time based, fleet size based, or even just making it so you get an extra couple planes a week as long as they come from an alliance member or private seller.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:05:09 AM by [ATA] Verto »

Offline Lennertlenor

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2019, 07:48:10 PM »
what would make sense to me, is to either link it to number of staff, or allow us to list multiple a/c as 1 deal, and then change te limit to 2 deals per day/3 per week, so that fleet transitions and buying from alliance members becomes easier/faster and also not impact early game, since AI brokers only list single planes.

Offline henrikb100

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 12:02:53 AM »
I agree, it is too slow for larger airlines as is (especially when seen in conjunction with fleet type restrictions)
Instead of using eras, it could be tied to airline size, eg:
tup to 100 fleet size: 3 aircraft per week
100-200 fleet size: 4 aircraft per week
200-300 fleet size: 5 aircraft per week
...etc

Mike

Such a system would defeat the purpose of the acquisition restrictions, which is to level the playing field for the small vs big airlines.

Offline DanDan

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 04:22:08 AM »
Such a system would defeat the purpose of the acquisition restrictions, which is to level the playing field for the small vs big airlines.

well... there is a fine line between “leveling the playing field” and “terribly annoying”  :P

Offline schro

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2019, 11:57:30 AM »
Such a system would defeat the purpose of the acquisition restrictions, which is to level the playing field for the small vs big airlines.

It's more intended to control early stage growth than anything....

Online gazzz0x2z

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2019, 03:35:10 PM »
Indeed. Once you're around 300 planes, it won't prevent you from punching down. It just makes your life more annoying.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Aircraft allowance on the used market.
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2019, 05:02:44 PM »
I'd like to advocate that the limit of 3/7 days be increased gradually as a game progresses. I also made an earlier suggestion that an airline be able to pair up with another airline, and that the other airline could "push" planes to your airline. Make's buying from alliance team mates much easier and lets face it, you're going to buy them anyway. Perhaps this could have a separate, low, quota at the beginning and get higher each decade just like base limits etc

Simon

 

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