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Author Topic: [ok] Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age  (Read 1854 times)

So, as a fairly usual small regional airline operator in most game worlds, I'm a bit frustrated with the way the game scales once an airline reaches about the 1,000 plane fleet size as it becomes exponentially more difficult to keep an airline running once you pass that mark.  It's not really possible to run an airline with more than 1500 planes due to this as well.

The maximum theoretical plane acquisition rate is about 100 per year from the used market (assume 60-70% of 52*3) plus new planes limited to about 12 per year for extra large and 20 per year for large. When you look at that intake rate and the fact that you have to 1. focus on getting new planes for continuing fleet types and 2. replacing old fleet types with new fleet types, there's only so many you can get and keep the aircraft age below ~24 years (due to unnecessarily high maintenance costs beyond that).

In GW2, I have been working on roughly a 750 plane conversion (L1011 to 777) over the course of the past 7 game years. During those 7 years, I have acquired about 650x 777's through a combination of the used market and ordering new. I still have 100+ planes left to replace.  In order to accomplish this rate, I've literally been setting an alarm to go off every game week to remind me to buy a plane from the used market. That's been my life for the past 44 real life days, and will be as I take on the rest of my deliveries over the next few weeks (as I've over ordered from other airlines by a few hundred for expansion). For long game worlds, this is a miserable existence and not very much fun. While doing these replacements, there's not really the ability to expand as all planes coming in are earmarked for replacing obsolete planes.

My understanding of the used market limit of 3 planes per week is in place to prevent rapid growth from early starts to achieve some level of balance during the major growth phase of a game world. Once the game world has matured (i.e. 15-20 game years in), the importance of this limit should decline. I propose that some mechanism, whether it be an airline's fleet size, the airline's age or a combination thereof would increase the planes per week that can be taken from the used market.

For example:
-Airline must be 25 years old
-If the airline has 501-750 planes in service, 4 per week used market limit
-If the airline has 751-1000 planes in service, 5 per week used market limit
-If the airline has 1001-1250 planes in service, 6 per week used market limit
-and so on.

This structure would 1. Continue to limit early and mid term growth to a reasonable level and 2. Make it a bit easier to deal with yuge fleet transitions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 02:24:39 PM by Sami »

Offline Andre090904

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2018, 12:39:25 AM »
Fully agree. Keep the current limit for game start. Expand the limit for airlines older/bigger than xyz. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2018, 09:45:48 AM »
I would go even further and limit it only through airline age.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2018, 10:40:03 AM »
There has been a proposal some weeks ago, about increasing the limit for the UM for planes privately listed. This would sure be a nice step forward without breaking the balance of the game (thus asking for a rebalancing).
Actually, there was different sub-proposals, the most basic one being the setting up of a queue, so you continue to receive planes even during the night (so you don't lose 1/3 of the day).
Can't find the thread, but it sure could be interesting.

Offline MuzhikRB

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2018, 11:19:24 AM »
even adapting a queue will help big boys a little.

for long GWs we can raise the um limit like we shorten the daytime. from 35 min to 25 min per day.
So at the beginning - 3 planes per week. after 20-25 years -> 6 planes. per week
10 years later - increase to 10 planes per week.
if queue will be implemented at the same patch - it will be super!

what it will give to players:
1. more easy and convenient to replace big fleets. it also can open some strategy and increase differences because now half of fleet changes are not implemented only because of possible speed of conversion.
2. more ways to enter GW in mid time. entering the game after 2001 as example and having the opportunity to expand quickly will allow and attract more players to restart/start in long GWs and attack "sleeping bears"... what also give some boost of interest to "bears".

I am totally against limiting to airline age - why the newbie has less opportunity to expand ?
limit to GW age - will give equal opportunity to everyone.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 11:21:27 AM by MuzhikRB »

Offline schro

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2018, 12:05:25 PM »
I do like the queue concept and automation of the used market, but it's also a far bigger feature than just a couple of conditional rules to rate limit the existing used market. I would suspect there's other features that would be prioritized over the development of the queue, thus, even a small change like this would make a meaningful interim impact.

I am totally against limiting to airline age - why the newbie has less opportunity to expand ?
limit to GW age - will give equal opportunity to everyone.

For less experienced players, the limit is for their own good. New players would end up leasing more planes than they can handle, then fail to buy slots, and if they could afford slots, they'd go bankrupt anyway by having too many routes with a 0 RI and competition. The 3 plane limit also encourages airlines to switch to buying planes around the ~300ish plane mark as they will start to accumulate cash that is difficult to spend on leasing at that point.

The airline age metric (paired with planes in service metric) specifically targets airlines that have large fleet replacements to perform. A 5 year old airline should not need to do a 500+ size fleet replacement as it's borderline impossible to even acquire 500 planes in 5 game years.

Offline schro

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 01:00:44 AM »
Further thought on the airline age limit - it would also slow down experienced players that have a bunch of friends sell/lease him/her spare planes (a common occurrence) from using that as an advantage (as it would be a major one... entering a game world with a limitless supply of cheap planes that you can build quickly with?)

Offline MikeS

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 04:41:21 AM »
I love this game.
But having to do a 750 aircraft fleet transition is a trip to hell and back. There is nothing gratifying about it. I really admire the patience and think
it deserves to be incorporated in the airline score somehow.
I wish a mechanism could be worked out whereby the system calculates the rescheduling to a new aircraft type on a whole week basis, perfectly
spacing flights/turn around times for the best results.

Re original suggestion. Perfectly valid request and definitely needed at those fleet sizes

Offline schro

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 11:53:12 AM »
Now that we have a 1000 our of base limit going forward, this feature request is a bit more relevant...

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 11:09:12 PM »
For example:
-Airline must be 25 years old
-If the airline has 501-750 planes in service, 4 per week used market limit
-If the airline has 751-1000 planes in service, 5 per week used market limit
-If the airline has 1001-1250 planes in service, 6 per week used market limit
-and so on.

This structure would 1. Continue to limit early and mid term growth to a reasonable level and 2. Make it a bit easier to deal with yuge fleet transitions.

Ping.

I would lower the airline age (or Game World age) to 10 or 15 years old.

At that point, increased uptake of aircraft from Used Market is not really limiting other players.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2019, 02:40:00 AM »
Honestly I’d settle for 4 frames delivered per game week (standard two week backlog notwithstanding) with the sky (read: none) being the limit on purchases listed privately or 2/game day (4/wk) on open listings.

It’s lame and frankly out of date having to set alarms just to purchase needed frames.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:43:18 AM by Zobelle »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2019, 07:18:35 AM »
Honestly I’d settle for 4 frames delivered per game week (standard two week backlog notwithstanding) with the sky (read: none) being the limit on purchases listed privately or 2/game day (4/wk) on open listings.

It’s lame and frankly out of date having to set alarms just to purchase needed frames.

interesting. And it would avoid a tactic used by some during base opening : order all planes with delay, so that they all arrive at the same time, and drop all them all at once on the target. You could still do that, but would have to stockpile a few months before - which seems more realistic to me.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2019, 10:37:19 PM »
Honestly I’d settle for 4 frames delivered per game week (standard two week backlog notwithstanding) with the sky (read: none) being the limit on purchases listed privately or 2/game day (4/wk) on open listings.

It’s lame and frankly out of date having to set alarms just to purchase needed frames.

Good point about private vs. public listing.

The limits, as far as I know, are there so that early in the game, airlines that are ahead financially can't monopolize the UM and buy up all the aircraft, depriving other players.

But for Privately Listed Aircraft, late in the game, is not depriving anyone if the buying player gets more, or unlimited number of aircraft...

Offline MuzhikRB

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 12:44:53 PM »
to be more realistic I would propose to connect the UM limit with amount of staff you have.
High-level management or Mid-Level management AND Economics and finance (for paper work)
If you have recommended amount - then you have the usual limit, if you want more - then you should increase your staff above the recommended.

So - it can be like every 5% above proposed will allow you to order 1 extra plane per week.

Numbers can be adjusted.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 08:03:48 PM »
to be more realistic I would propose to connect the UM limit with amount of staff you have.
High-level management or Mid-Level management AND Economics and finance (for paper work)
If you have recommended amount - then you have the usual limit, if you want more - then you should increase your staff above the recommended.

So - it can be like every 5% above proposed will allow you to order 1 extra plane per week.

Numbers can be adjusted.

I disagree with this.

A big airline already has 100x the staff of the start up airline on the first day, and this 100x staff can only accommodate the same number of used aircraft as 1/100 of the staff on the first day of the airline...

Offline stealy

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2020, 10:39:19 AM »
Sami, please consider this.

In GW1, I have over 2000 planes in operation and some are approaching 30 years old. Several members of my alliance are kind enough to order AC on my behalf to private list them to me so I can replace them in a timely manner. However, the current limit of 3 AC per week is severely hindering my ability to take delivery of those AC. I already have about 60 AC private listed to me and every time I log on to buy more, the number increases. I have probably been maxing out my limit per week for the past 20 game years.

I understand why the limit exists and I am not advocating for it to be removed completely, but at some point, it becomes meaningless. It makes sense to have a limit in the beginning or mid-game to prevent airlines from unfairly acquiring a large number of AC from their friends and growing exponentially. It also prevents airlines from buying every plane on the open used market just because they have the money and time. These all make sense.

However, what good does limiting a 50 year old airline with 2000+ planes in late game (about 5 years left) do? All those AC are private listed to me, so it's not like anyone else could get them. No reasonable player would start a game with 5 game years left (assuming it's even possible to start at this time), so it's not like the limit is protecting new/small airlines. I seriously can't think of a reason why there is a limit of 3 AC per week for airlines at this stage. The reason given in the game is "your personnel are busy arranging the delivery," which is odd because I have almost 320K personnel, including 30K+ pilots, and somehow they are all busy? With almost 1.2 trillion dollars in the bank, I think my airline can afford to hire more pilots to take delivery of AC if needed.  :-\

There are so many ways to ease this problem. You can increase the limit for the last 5 or 10 game years, for airlines over a certain age, for airlines over a certain number of AC, or for AC that are private listed rather than publicly listed.

Please, please consider this. Thank you.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2020, 11:43:21 AM »
+1

easy change to up the 3 planes/7days UM limit after first few GW years. Heck could be done manually in SQL once a real world month or so in a matter of minutes. And it would make the game so much more playable for large players. No code change needed. Or do it as part of the Jan 1st tax calculation, (current_year-game_start_year)+3.

Simon

Offline Sami

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2020, 04:37:50 PM »
Heck could be done manually in SQL once a real world month or so in a matter of minutes.

Not really.

Anyway, what would be a good formula for this? The rate would be based on the game's "maturity" and would be the same for all airlines. If the rate is the present one at day 1, what should it be in game year 10, or 30?

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2020, 04:44:16 PM »
something like if year is 0-10, then 3 per 7 days
10-20 then 4 per 7 days
20-30 then 5 per 7 days
30-40 then 6 per 7 days
40-50 then 7 per 7 days

obviously the numbers can be tweaked for balance purposes, but that's how i interpreted the request.

dmoose42

Online LemonButt

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Re: Adapt used market uptake rate based upon airline size or age
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2020, 04:47:06 PM »
Not really.

Anyway, what would be a good formula for this? The rate would be based on the game's "maturity" and would be the same for all airlines. If the rate is the present one at day 1, what should it be in game year 10, or 30?

It shouldn't be based on game year--it should be based on airline size, which also protects small airlines from themselves (overexpanding too fast).  IMO you can make it simple saying you can get 3 per week or 1% of your fleet per week--whichever is larger.  That means if you have 1000 aircraft you can get 10 aircraft per week.  If you have 100 aircraft you can get 3 aircraft per week.  Since it's the used market, you won't have issues with new airlines taking all the inventory of newer models that happens almost exclusively when the game starts.

I currently have 1500 aircraft in AG and am seeing the airlines larger than me see their LFs drop as aircraft hit 30+ years and they're unable to do anything about it (from the outside looking in).  If you have the staff for 1500 aircraft, your team should be more than capable of taking delivery of 15 aircraft in a single week.

 

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