After a couple days, a few thoughts about the game...

[Pike]

Hi everyone,

First, all thanks to Sami for a great game.  I've really enjoyed myself, though there are a few observations
I have made for what they are worth:

1. Many major hubs of the world are far to easily dominated by too few carriers this short into the game.  We are only a year and a half into game 2, and yet many spots are totally covered up by relatively few carriers.  Near the end of the game, I could see this---as we see this in real life (American in DFW, Delta in Atlanta, etc etc.) but it seems to have happened pretty quick here.  The only problem I see is that demand is not nearly high enough for major routes to be open to competition by new carriers. 

2. The used aircraft market makes it nearly unfair on the new airline.  It was mentioned that at the start of the game there were several hundred aircraft available.  Makes sense.  It also makes sense that there should still be that many when I started a few days ago.  New aircraft are obviously prohibitive, so what is a new carrier to do?  If I, as a new carrier, go with something like an old 727 because that is all that is available....now I am stuck with an airplane that puts me at a total disadvantage.  Maybe that is the point.  All the same, it just doesn't seem right.

3.  Turn around times are much longer than they should be.  I was a gate agent once upon a time for American Eagle at DFW and TXK.  We could turn a Saab around in 10 minutes.  That's from the time they shut down on the ramp, to start up and taxi.  For ERJ's and CRJ's, we could move them along in about 15 minutes (CRJ's maybe 20 if it was a full load.)  My friends at American were able to move MD-80's in about 30 minutes.  Anyway, just something I noticed that needs tweaked to better simulate real life operations.

Anyway, those are the two big beefs I have.  Not much really, as I have enjoyed myself.  I've managed to make SLC a respectable if not bustling hub for my airline.  My game 1 airline is another matter, as I cannot get my hands on the necessary aircraft to compete with the 2 established airlines already onsite.

Thanks again Sami for a great game, hope everyone has a good rest of the week.

[swiftus27]

1.  I don't know if it is in the sim, but as airlines grow, more people will be flowing through each airport.  As the networks expand, you should see more traffic.  I think Alliances are going to be key.

2.  I think that young airlines should learn the game on small cheap planes.  Not everyone gets to start the game with a 767.

3.  I completely disagree.  From the time the plane pulls up to the gate to the time it pulls away is what is being looked at here.  Most of the jet aircraft of the world take 1/2 hour just to board the plane.

[Sami]

I used to work with ATR72s and we had couple of routes with scheduled 15 min turnarounds at outstations (due to commercial / ticket sale reasons vs. other airlines), and 15 mins for ATR not even half full was simply not possible. It was around 20 mins and if deicing was needed, add another 10 ...

Some of the bigger planes do need turnaround time tuning, this is already known. But it all comes down to the type of operation and company concepts and policies (for example refuelling and cleaning). At the moment it assumes 'full service' at all stopovers ...

[dazz81]

1.  I don't know if it is in the sim, but as airlines grow, more people will be flowing through each airport.  As the networks expand, you should see more traffic.  I think Alliances are going to be key.

2.  I think that young airlines should learn the game on small cheap planes.  Not everyone gets to start the game with a 767.

3.  I completely disagree.  From the time the plane pulls up to the gate to the time it pulls away is what is being looked at here.  Most of the jet aircraft of the world take 1/2 hour just to board the plane.

swiftus, your quite wrong on point 3. the turnaround times are out and need fine tuning, as sami has mentioned this has already been acknowledged and he is working on it. in real life plenty of airlines turn widebody 767 and A300 aircraft in 40 to 45 minutes. this is simply not possible in this game. 777's are regularly turned in 60 minutes on short flights and again not possible in this game. A 757 in this game requires 70 minutes to turn, this is an aircraft used regularly on domestic runs around the world and is turned around in about half that. Have a look at airline schedules like Thai Airways and Qantas on shorter sectors with widebodies and see how quickly they turn them.


As for the OP's original points, I think it is possible to move in on established airlines routes but it can be difficult and may cost a fair bit of money initially. hence you need to have a bit of money behind you first by flowing some of the less flown sectors.  The used aircraft market is updated quite regularly, I have found MD80 type aircraft popping up at least every few hours, if you wait a while you can find it.

[swiftus27]

I guess that my definition of turnaround is different from yours.  Perhaps Sami's interpretation of it is similar to yours.

To me, turnaround starts when it pulls up to the gate and doesn't end until it is backing out. 
To me, it includes disembarkation, refuelling, cleaning, taking out baggage and garbage, and then setting it up for the next flight (including boarding... which usually starts 45 minutes before a flight takes off). 

[dazz81]

I guess that my definition of turnaround is different from yours.  Perhaps Sami's interpretation of it is similar to yours.

To me, turnaround starts when it pulls up to the gate and doesn't end until it is backing out. 
To me, it includes disembarkation, refuelling, cleaning, taking out baggage and garbage, and then setting it up for the next flight (including boarding... which usually starts 45 minutes before a flight takes off). 

nope, i interpret it the same. you are thinking of long haul flying of a boeing 747 or similar i think. boarding of a boeing 767 bound for sydney from melbourne would start at about 15 to 20 mins prior to departure. just 10 to 15 mins after it has arrived from sydney. the aircraft would be being refuelled and baggage loading while passengers are boarding. catering should happen immediately as it arrives and be done in 10 minutes for a domestic sector. the cleaning is done by the cabin crew these days for lots of airlines on quick turnarounds!

[Sami]

boarding of a boeing 767 bound for sydney from melbourne would start at about 15 to 20 mins prior to departure.

250 pax boarding in 15 minutes..? Must be some very fast passengers.

[moxiepilot]

not the ones I get stuck behind....usually

[dazz81]

250 pax boarding in 15 minutes..? Must be some very fast passengers.

oh well, can only comment on what i have experienced in real life every day flying in australia sami

[Pike]

1.  I don't know if it is in the sim, but as airlines grow, more people will be flowing through each airport.  As the networks expand, you should see more traffic.  I think Alliances are going to be key.

2.  I think that young airlines should learn the game on small cheap planes.  Not everyone gets to start the game with a 767.

3.  I completely disagree.  From the time the plane pulls up to the gate to the time it pulls away is what is being looked at here.  Most of the jet aircraft of the world take 1/2 hour just to board the plane.

1.  Awesome, that will no doubt help alot.

2. Learn the game on small cheap planes?  You mean like regional t-props and such?  What is the profit margin on those, or viability of being successful at start-up with those?  Or do you mean using 18-year old aircraft like the 727 or variations of the DC-9?  I never mentioned 767's or anything of the like.  I was commenting that those who were here at the game's start were given a huge advantage over those of us who just came on because of the selection of aircraft at the start of the game.  That is undeniable.  Now if that's just how it is, so be it.  But it just doesn't sit well with me, that with all the things to overcome--you can't even get a decent plane to compete with.  Now I do know that some good ones fall in every so often.....with my Game #2 airline I was fortunate enough to have 4 MD-80's to lease at the start of the game.  But in Game #1, I had almost nothing to choose from and even in #2 a decent plane is extremely hard to come by.  In any case, it is not a gamebreaker for me, just something I'd like to see addressed.

3.  You have obviously never worked as a gate agent.  I did.  At DFW, our target time for a 70-seat CRJ was 20 minutes from the clock in to clock out.  FYI--Clock In is when the parking brake is set, Clock Out happens when the parking brake is released.  That is how the industry defines turn time.  On MD-88's, the agents could turn the aircraft in about 25 minutes.  Bigger aircraft, like the 767 or 777 certainly take longer---about 60 minutes typically. 

You are mistaken because you are assuming that aircraft are fully serviced on every stop.  They are not.  Especially not at the out-stations (again, an industry term to describe where the plane goes from the hub.)  At the out-station, you pull off the pax and bags, and load the new ones and away they go.  This was frequently done in 10 minutes with Saab 340 aircraft.  Just about every day.  As is, I did this personally every day.  At the hub, the only thing done at each gate stop is having the trash taken out.  That takes all of about 30 seconds.  Drinks and food are brought on only if needed, which in this day and age is certainly not every stop (since airlines make pax pay for the food)  Drink carts are usually stocked enough for at least a couple of legs, maybe as many as four depending on demand.  Lavs are usually not pumped out until the end of the day. The only time an aircraft would be fully serviced at an out-station is after the last flight of the day.

You can disagree if you like, but I doubt you have the experience I do.

As for ATR's.....never worked on them so I can't say.  Also, I'm not taking into account deicing time--as I assume the game is not either.  It would be hard to simulate, and not something that could obviously be done across the board.

Anyway, there's not much I dislike about the game--and even with what I consider flaws, this is still far superior to Airline Online or any of the other airline sim products I have run across.  And considering it is still in its infancy....well that makes it all the more amazing (not to mention the price.)

[Pike]

I guess that my definition of turnaround is different from yours.  Perhaps Sami's interpretation of it is similar to yours.

To me, turnaround starts when it pulls up to the gate and doesn't end until it is backing out. 
To me, it includes disembarkation, refuelling, cleaning, taking out baggage and garbage, and then setting it up for the next flight (including boarding... which usually starts 45 minutes before a flight takes off). 

Wrong.  Way wrong.

As mentioned above, turn-around starts when the parking brake is set--which is usually a few seconds before the door is opened.  Arrival times are for gate to gate.  The aircraft are not always refueled, certainly not always cleaned, and garbage takes just a few seconds.  As for setting up for the next flight......if you mean what the pilots do in terms of planning, etc....that is done during boarding.

Unless there was a problem, or a gap in the schedule.....you would never, ever see an example of a 150 seat aircraft taking more than an hour to make the turn.  Never.  Period.

I realize this is all something you wouldn't likely know, since you can't really be around the process unless you work for the airline.....

[Mahon]

I can abide turn times being longer or shorter than in real life. I just have to wonder why the 757's is so much longer than the comparably-sized A321. 

[xolon]

I worked quite some time as platform supervisor during my study at Amsterdam airport. Even the smallest aircrafts (BAE-146, Dash8 Q400, 735) were sometimes a pain to turn around in 25 minutes. You often see that refuelling, waterservice, cleaning keeps you waiting longer then prefered. And then i don´t even start about available pushbackdrivers, missing pax, crowded ATC.....

Turnarounds can be a big pain.

[Pike]

I worked quite some time as platform supervisor during my study at Amsterdam airport. Even the smallest aircrafts (BAE-146, Dash8 Q400, 735) were sometimes a pain to turn around in 25 minutes. You often see that refuelling, waterservice, cleaning keeps you waiting longer then prefered. And then i don´t even start about available pushbackdrivers, missing pax, crowded ATC.....

Turnarounds can be a big pain.

Again, refuels, water service, cleaning, etc., is not done on every turn.  At least it wasn't in my time at American/American Eagle. 

Pushback carts.....never saw that problem at DFW.  Or anywhere else.
Missing Pax.....leave them in a heartbeat.  I closed my flight 10 minutes prior to departure, per company policy.
ATC.....Is not part of the turn time equation.  I believe the game already factors delays, yes?

25 minutes to turn around a 50-70 seat aircraft?  Easy.  Did it every day.

[xolon]

Seems some groundhandlers at Schiphol just can´tget it right

[Pike]

Seems some groundhandlers at Schiphol just can´t it right

I don't mean to come across rudely, though I am sure I did.  I just have had a much different experience with turn times than you have.

This prolly shouldn't be surprising considering the difference in airline, country, airport, culture, etc etc etc.

My apologies for being less than polite in the discussion,

Pike

[dazz81]

I dont think you came across as rude pike.

Someone mentioned the 757 turn times being very high compared to A321, totally agree. All this stuff I have brought up during beta testing and Sami has said he is working on some update re turnarounds. I have suggested shorter turnarounds for shorter legs, e.g. short domestic runs, where as you say, the aircraft may not need to be fully catered, cleaned etc. But on a long haul sector it is naturally going to be a longer turn.

[Pike]

I dont think you came across as rude pike.

Someone mentioned the 757 turn times being very high compared to A321, totally agree. All this stuff I have brought up during beta testing and Sami has said he is working on some update re turnarounds. I have suggested shorter turnarounds for shorter legs, e.g. short domestic runs, where as you say, the aircraft may not need to be fully catered, cleaned etc. But on a long haul sector it is naturally going to be a longer turn.

Agreed......especially the 757 vs. A321.  Really neuters the value of Boeing's plane, in my opinion.  Glad to hear that Sami is no doubt tweaking this along with other items.  The game will no doubt continue to get better and better.

I am totally with you about short vs. long flights.  I don't know if it is possible, but it would be cool if the game could impose a minimum depending on the length of the flight.  If, say, it's over 2000 miles you would have to add turn time to take care of the appropiate items.

[swiftus27]

In my own defense, I have rarely flown smaller than 737 aircraft. 

All my planes seem to start boarding 45 minutes prior to scheduled departure.   Just going backwards from there, they still had to get the other pax off of the aircraft.   That's why it seems to always be an hour from getting chocked at the gate to getting the chocks pulled out.

Also, does the game also assume the turnaround time to include taxiing?

[dazz81]

no the turnaround does not include taxii'ing. that is already included in the (somewhat inflated based on real life short haul sectors) flight times