Which country do you come from?

[alexgv1]

....nobody wants to limit your freedom of speech nor your freedom to state complete nonsense like "GDR is not Germany"....

This reminds me of another inside joke which makes me laugh 

[Jona L.]

for Jona :
nobody wants to limit your freedom of speech nor your freedom to state complete nonsense like "GDR is not Germany". As I remember we were asked to write where we come from, nowadays. May I remind you of the fact that I live in the capital of our country ?
OK, you think is was a mistake to incorporate the GDR into the old West. Fine.
But you look at the whole problem just through your window in Duisburg. And the problems of your city began long before reunification and wouldn´t have been solved without it. I still remember the big strikes and protests when your steel works were closed during the 80`s.Other cities in the west have managed better to cope with the downfall of the ancient heavy industries.And it´s the fault of the now reigning politics to let communities and cities suffer of funding.
If your age is 18 as you state, you haven´t lived at that time nor before it.I did.In Berlin.
The question of that time was not -"should we?".It was "when and how?" The GDR was bankrupt and was unable to survive on it´s own. And since everybody was free to move to the west he would have done so... consequences? Have you ever heard of the slogan of the East Germans:" Kommt die D-Mark nicht nach hier, zieh´n wir um und geh´n zu ihr?"  (If Deutschmark isn´t coming here we will move to it?).
As you see, there are always two sides of the medal. And anyway it´s irrelevant if we judge things that happened in the past right or wrong, we can´t reverse them and should try to make the best out of it.
Sorry but your arguments fit right into the old scheme of "Besserwessis" and "Jammerossies",slightly transformed into the new type of "Jammerwessi", a thing of the past not suiting people your age.

In the first place I only wanted to write where I am living.....

Cheers
Christian

Didn't mean to change this topic, but it seems like we drive off to German politics.

Yes indeed I am 18, but I worked through the topic of German German relations pretty well through a couple of years of intense history lessons, holidays visting what our money built over there, and also reading (and viewing) through many kinds of sources.

Talking about the slogan of the East Germans: There was a wall to prevent them from doing so - and for those who can't notice from reading: I am completely serious about this, as cynical as it may sound. And to complete: Rebuild that goddamn wall, but build it out of glass, so they can see how soon the west is wealthy again.

This is my favorite hate topic for real life, which you may have noticed. Coming slightly before Slot Hoggers and Frequency F*ckers, which are followed by German immigration policy of the 50ies-80ies.

In the first place I only wanted to write where I am living.....

Sorry for getting too off topic!


----------

This reminds me of another inside joke which makes me laugh 

We both and a few others, know where this lead us last year. Will shut myself up now, don't want it to happen again, one has to learn from errors... ohh, what a coincident, this so much fits the topic... learning from errors

cheers,
and a good night!

[Dave4468]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present Jona L., Dean of the Department of Keyboard Warrior Studies and Misguided Projection.

You are clearly dealing with someone who knows more of what you are rambling on about here, given he was alive at the time. Save face, stop now, while you can.

[exchlbg]

"Rebuild that goddamn wall, but build it out of glass, so they can see how soon the west is wealthy again..."

.....tear everything down behind it and organize a constant Love Parade on the ruins, with only one tiny tunnel at Bhf. Friedrichstraße to visit it.....

[Jona L.]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present Jona L., Dean of the Department of Keyboard Warrior Studies and Misguided Projection.

You are clearly dealing with someone who knows more of what you are rambling on about here, given he was alive at the time. Save face, stop now, while you can.

Well, dave, being alive during an event does not necessarily mean you know more about it than someone who wasn't, especially considering there are only few topics on which you can get more information that German-German relations and the fall of the GDR (at least talking for German standards).

"Rebuild that goddamn wall, but build it out of glass, so they can see how soon the west is wealthy again..."

.....tear everything down behind it and organize a constant Love Parade on the ruins, with only one tiny tunnel at Bhf. Friedrichstraße to visit it.....

Well, I don't actually care, as I never supported the "Love Parade", neither in Duisburg nor anywhere else. It was a big mistake, and I didn't say that Mr. Sauerland, our town mayor, was a good politician. I didn't vote for him, that just asides.


There are just slight differences between Duisburg and the GDR which makes it a bit diffcult to compare.

a) Duisburg is a town under 500.000 inhabitants, while the GDR had over 5 million people living in it (a lot more even).

b) Duisburg has no command economy, nor is it run by a communist or socialist government.

c) We didn't ask for being integrated into FRoG, we were part of it right from the beginning, and had been pretty wealthy until the GDR came in.

d) We have had (and still have) solid industry, which you claim to have been brought down. Thyssen Krupp is the 7th largest producer for Steel and Steel products, only out of Duisburg. Duisburg also has "HKM" ("Hüttenwerke Krupp-Mannesmann") belonging to the Accelor Mittal steel-group which is also in the top-ten steel producers of the world with a couple of steelworks. Duisburg also still has the 2nd largest inland harbor of the world at which over 40 million metric tons of freight are handled each year. And thus have an industry that with no doubt could beat the industry of any (former) GDR town, and can measure up to a big portion of the whole GDR's GDP.

[exchlbg]

You surely must be the pride of your parents, little sunshine. What would we all be without that impressive body of doubtful acquired knowledge you are graciously willing to share with us ?
Thank you ever so much !

[Jona L.]

You surely must be the pride of your parents, little sunshine. What would we all be without that impressive body of doubtful acquired knowledge you are graciously willing to share with us ?
Thank you ever so much !

Let me try the way we are used to here in Germany:

Problem altah? Will'su Stress? Kann isch geben.
"Problems old boy? wanna have stress? I can give." (roughly translated)

If you have a problem with a different opinion being based mainly on facts and sources than on personal feelings or experiences thus being a bit more cold blooded, as facts usually don't speak the softy way.

As for you calling me "little sunshine" I feel a bit uncomfortable, as I am fully straight, and don't like being turned on by men...

[exchlbg]

Kindergarten.

[alexgv1]

This is pathetic.stop.  If there are grown man here act like them.

Germany the only country to profit from WW2 behind USA.

[Jona L.]

Germany the only country to profit from WW2 behind USA.

Was never the question, Alex

[alexgv1]

Was never the question, Alex

No but that is my gripe, Germany now best economy of Europe. Should we open a German politics thread lol? 

[Neotion]

No but that is my gripe, Germany now best economy of Europe. Should we open a German politics thread lol? 

Unless Greece bankrupts. Or Portugal. Or Spain. Or Italy. You get the picture.

[alexgv1]

Hehe very true. I like this economy discussion should make a thread.

[Jona L.]

No but that is my gripe, Germany now best economy of Europe. Should we open a German politics thread lol? 

Well, indeed we are. And no, we shouldn't need that, would only end up in "6-page-jobs" (inside joke), Alex...

Unless Greece bankrupts. Or Portugal. Or Spain. Or Italy. You get the picture.

Well, if these countries hadn't screwed up their economies, we wouldn't need to pay for them (especially Greece), which would keep our economy strong. I know we profited a lot from the exports to those countries (most of the exports were financed by loans from GER), but yet they are all barrels with no bottom.

I have my own ideas on how to make fair solutions to this, but dozens of people would call me an a**hole for that, or even a fascist (neither are true), thus I will not publicate them unless asked for (which in turn means there cannot be a reason to complain about my answer).

Hehe very true. I like this economy discussion should make a thread.

go ahead, mate, I'd like to participate there (as a matter of concern for our South-European friends though, I fear)


cheers,
Jona L.

[alexgv1]

Yes I have some pretty radical solutions for the Greece problem as well but better not to post here.

[JumboShrimp]

Did I say so?! I just said, that the GDR and the reunification were mistakes -and to complete the satement:- and remain the biggest mistakes in German post-war history.

The mistake was how it was implemented.  GDR was a poor relative, and if treated as such, all would have been fine.

There are countries in Eastern Europe that were on par with East Germany that are booming on their own, without any subsidies, guarantees etc. (Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia).  They earned a better standard of living (compared to 40 years of communism) very gradually, but on their own...  It could have happened (economically) the same way in GDR as well.

Luckily we live in a country with freedom of speech and thought, thus I am allowed to express these thoughts.

Don't get too comfortable.  Speech and thought police in the West is still in its infancy, but within our lifetime, it will be worse than it was in the East during Communism...

[Neotion]

Well, if these countries hadn't screwed up their economies, we wouldn't need to pay for them (especially Greece), which would keep our economy strong. I know we profited a lot from the exports to those countries (most of the exports were financed by loans from GER), but yet they are all barrels with no bottom.

I have my own ideas on how to make fair solutions to this, but dozens of people would call me an a**hole for that, or even a fascist (neither are true), thus I will not publicate them unless asked for (which in turn means there cannot be a reason to complain about my answer).

Yes I have some pretty radical solutions for the Greece problem as well but better not to post here.

Thing is, the only solution left now for the northern European countries is to press on with issuing loans.. Because at present, hundreds of billions of euros have already been invested in the southern economies. Leaving them to go bankrupt or kicking them out of the eurozone, for example, vaporizes most, if not all of this capital.

Basically, we're in too deep now to turn back, which in my opinion is very worrying: Greece is still nose deep into a big steamy pile of horse sh*t, Portugal is rapidly evolving into Greece's evil cousin, Italy continues to pile up debt that is even bigger than the value of all goods and services they produce combined, and Spain's unemployment is completely out of control.

We're on a ticking time bomb, ladies and gentlemen.

[JumboShrimp]

Thing is, the only solution left now for the northern European countries is to press on with issuing loans.. Because at present, hundreds of billions of euros have already been invested in the southern economies. Leaving them to go bankrupt or kicking them out of the eurozone, for example, vaporizes most, if not all of this capital.

Basically, we're in too deep now to turn back, which in my opinion is very worrying: Greece is still nose deep into a big steamy pile of horse sh*t, Portugal is rapidly evolving into Greece's evil cousin, Italy continues to pile up debt that is even bigger than the value of all goods and services they produce combined, and Spain's unemployment is completely out of control.

We're on a ticking time bomb, ladies and gentlemen.

As far as ticking time bomb, that's what it looks like.

As far as staying the course, another expression comes to mind:  throwing good money after bad ...

[Jona L.]

Thing is, the only solution left now for the northern European countries is to press on with issuing loans.. Because at present, hundreds of billions of euros have already been invested in the southern economies. Leaving them to go bankrupt or kicking them out of the eurozone, for example, vaporizes most, if not all of this capital.

Well, why throw out more money to be vaporized as well?! I predict, that even the 10th rescue package of 100eds of billions (only the first three had a volume of over 200bn€) will not help Greece out of their debts. This is like towing the Titanic onto its rescue boats to slow down the sinking, but in the end if you don't cut off the tows you'll sink, too. So I tell you, that we should cut off NOW, in order not to let the worlds second largest economy (per capita) sink with them [for those who are unaware: I talk of Germany]. And we CANNOT also catch the fall of Portugal, Italy or Spain (short: the P.I.G.S.), if we don't want to end up on 3rd world level same as Angola or Cuba, or whatsoever state with no economy.

We're on a ticking time bomb, ladies and gentlemen.

Agreed, so we should work on defusing it, or run from the explosion. Same if a grenade is thrown towards you, you've got 1/10 of a second to decide: throw away, kick away of run away. I say: stop throwing it back in form of our TAX billions, and start running away from it (as the UK Army does from throw grenades same as UK government does from paying towards Greece), save our money and help rebuild the country after the crash.

This is like someone would have been trying to rebuild Dresden before it was bombed down 1945. A waste of cash, it will go lost anyways. So, let it crash and rebuild it with the help of that money. It is about time for Germany to return the favor of the ERP (Marshall-Plan), by founding a new ERP v2.0 that gives funds to the bankrupt states for rebuilding of economics and political systems (which could try not to corrupt 99% as the current state is).


To all friendliness there must be a border at which there is to be stopped, if the own life (or economics) is risked to be endangered.


cheers,
Jona L.

[Tujue]

I have my own ideas on how to make fair solutions to this, but dozens of people would call me an a**hole for that, or even a fascist (neither are true), thus I will not publicate them unless asked for (which in turn means there cannot be a reason to complain about my answer).

Yes I have some pretty radical solutions for the Greece problem as well but better not to post here.

Just sell the Greek islands to Turkey and viola you have solved two problems at once!