Typeratings

[GEnx]

I was wandering around in my income statement looking at some graphs and figures when something suddenly popped into my head: typeratings. In modern times, these can cost up to 35000 EUR per pilot. Subsequently, my question is: how are these modeled now in AirwaySim? Is the pilot assumed to possess TR's already or does it stack up to the pilot training costs?

[LemonButt]

I think staff training in fleet commonality costs take care of this...

[GEnx]

I think staff training in fleet commonality costs take care of this...

Shouldn't we have an option to let the pilot pay for his own TR, then (at the cost of pilot morale)? This is being done very often in the real world (FlyBe, Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.) which is a real pain for those who hold their licenses, but a blessing to the companies who employ them.

[ukatlantic]

Shouldn't we have an option to let the pilot pay for his own TR, then (at the cost of pilot morale)? This is being done very often in the real world (FlyBe, Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.) which is a real pain for those who hold their licenses, but a blessing to the companies who employ them.

A couple of friends of mine had their ATPLs but no type rating, one went to Fly(may)be and was type rated on the Q400 by them and the other went to (C)Ryanair and both airlines paid for their ratings on contract that they both stayed at the airline for X amount of years - have both airlines stopped doing for this now?  I only ask because if you factor in that very few UK airlines offer scholarships through Oxford Aviation Academy and you add the ATPL cost which is approx £80,000 (and thats if you pass all exams first time), and you have to add a Type Rating on top your effectively £115,000 out of pocket before you even have a job and starting pay for pilots is not good around £20-30k for a F/O, its only when you get promoted to Captain do you start earining big money so how on earth can an individual be expected to put all that cash upfront 

[Pilot Oatmeal]

ukatlantic, welcome to my life hahaha... its called rich dads.. 

[GEnx]

Karl, I know how bad the pilot market is.. I follow it a lot since it is eventually going to be my future as well. In fact, in the Netherlands, this year about 40 pilots will retire/leave their jobs due to natural circumstances, while 600 pilots are trained by the nation's flight schools. It is that bad. Even worse, some airlines introduce a P2F (pay2fly) system where the pilot has to pay the employer to be able to get their hours on type.. And on top of that, most employers let the pilots pay their own typeratings as well.

Some airlines like FlyBe offer a cadetship through OAA as you mentioned, which includes the typerating in the price for the academy. On average, a pilot should expect to take a loan of around €175.000 in total. There are two problems with the "FlyBe-way", however: 1. They train on the MPL standard, not the generally accepted CPL, and 2. they offer you merely a summer contract for 6 months (so after those six months, they're free to give you the au revoir). It probably can't get any worse than this..

Anyway, because it is recently such a common practice to let the pilot pay its own typeratings and such, I was asking how it is modeled and whether we should include it.

[ukatlantic]

ukatlantic, welcome to my life hahaha... its called rich dads.. 

Take it you want to be a pilot, but can't because of the cost?  

[Pilot Oatmeal]

No I am a PPL pilot, my dad is "well off" one could say, and hes a pilot (not as a career) but he uses his planes for business/pleasure.  So I am EXTREMELY fortunate to be in my shoes, and I know some are not as fortunate.  I do wonder though if there are loans out there, because I don't think EVERY pilot out there had the money to do training.

[GEnx]

Oates, 99,99% of all trained pilots have a loan to pay for their licenses.

[ukatlantic]

, some airlines introduce a P2F (pay2fly) system where the pilot has to pay the employer to be able to get their hours on type.

Never heard of that, thats pretty immoral if you ask me, and surely cant be legal  .  Anyway how far are you into your training as a pilot?

[GEnx]

Haven't started yet, will start in about three years after my university BSc.

[Pilot Oatmeal]

really? it must be so difficult to pay it back, as a matter of interest who gives these loans? surely not the banks

[GEnx]

really? it must be so difficult to pay it back, as a matter of interest who gives these loans? surely not the banks

Banks, yes. Under some pretty poor terms (interest alone is about €700 a month once you start paying it off).

[Pilot Oatmeal]

wow.... thats disgusting/wrong in so many ways

[ukatlantic]

No I am a PPL pilot, my dad is "well off" one could say, and hes a pilot (not as a career) but he uses his planes for business/pleasure.  So I am EXTREMELY fortunate to be in my shoes, and I know some are not as fortunate.  I do wonder though if there are loans out there, because I don't think EVERY pilot out there had the money to do training.

HSBC offer a specialist pilot training loan upto £110k from what I can remember, the disadvantge...you must have a house to use as the loan security.  Also in the UK if you fail your Instrument Rating, the CAA can turn around and say that you dont get another chance to do it.  A work Colleague of mine has a friend who was doing his IR for ATPL he failed it the first time, the second time he failed again and the CAA said there was no 3rd time for him.  So he paid out all that cash and can't fly commercial!

[Pilot Oatmeal]

Yea Im in the UK and I'm aware of that CAA rule... My dad won't let me learn in America (where I was born) because he thinks the training is crap, hence the reason hes making me learn at oxford (where he learnt).  I have a feeling the IR will be really difficult over here, hes always testing me hahaha

[GEnx]

Like Karl said, you must have a security so in most cases, that's your parent's house. In some really p*** poor cases I've heard, some guys who held their licenses and couldn't find a job were forced to just take any job as e.g. a cleaner to pay the loan, because otherwise they'd lose their loan security. 

[ukatlantic]

Yea Im in the UK and I'm aware of that CAA rule... My dad won't let me learn in America (where I was born) because he thinks the training is crap, hence the reason hes making me learn at oxford (where he learnt).  I have a feeling the IR will be really difficult over here, hes always testing me hahaha

OAA is recognised as one of the worlds best training acadamies, hence why BA (not sure about virgin) tend to prefer to recruit their pilots from there.

[GEnx]

Oh and if that's not bad enough already, those who managed to obtain their CPL/fATPL license can't just sit and wait for years to get a job. They have to stay current, which means that they have to have an X number of flight hours a year followed by an exam to "prove" they're still proficient. And obtaining those hours can be very costly (just look up the cost of one hour in a simulator..).

[GEnx]

OAA is recognised as one of the worlds best training acadamies, hence why BA (not sure about virgin) tend to prefer to recruit their pilots from there.

Yup, but BA is in a pretty poor financial state and Virgin only hires pilots with a certain number of hours on their logbook.