AirwaySim

What have I do?
My O2 airline started 4 month ago
Now it profiteble
But my competitor sterted to fly 80% of my routes, but a lot of other routes empty?
My sailsgo down?
Can I do smth exept go out of the game?

Report the offending airline to Sami. Targeting a new airline is a breach of the rules. PM Sami with the airline name, game world, and some specific route examples.

Quote from: pasterya on April 01, 2018, 11:11:26 PM
What have I do?
My O2 airline started 4 month ago
Now it profiteble
But my competitor sterted to fly 80% of my routes, but a lot of other routes empty?
My sailsgo down?
Can I do smth exept go out of the game?

Could just be a coincidence.

Would need to know what is the rough percentage route your competitor is flying that are not yours. I that percentage is really low, then it'd most likely a killing.
On the other hand, if those routes you both fly are the only really thick routes, it might be a little more difficult to find out.

But it's the 1st option or just borderline, check with Sami and try to give him some details, he'll see.

Impossible to say seen from outside. Nubira did set up a base in Pulkovo 08-Oct-2010. You did open a HQ there 12-May-2011, so I, as a simple player, cannot know if he is following you, or if you are following him.

That being said, with 2.7B$ in cash reserves, he is strong enough to survive a price war. Whether his moves are legal or not(I don't have enough info to know), I'd advise you not to follow him in a price war. Said otherwise, don't lower your prices to keep your market share. It would overall reduce your income base. Better fly a little less passengers, with a little bit more income per passenger.

Now, if I look at the routes, I have the following destinations :
Almaty, Nubira alone
Amsterdam, Nubira plus plenty of locals
Anapa, Nubira alone
Ankara, Nubira and a local
Ashgabat, Nubira alone
Athens, O2 alone
Bahrain, O2 alone
Baku, both of you. Competitive line, but with 170 demand, 2 single-aisle aircraft with proper pricing should survive.
Barcelona, you alone
Beauvais, Bergamo, Tegel, Bologna, Bristol, Brno, Nubira alone
Brussels, you and a local
Bugulma, you alone


Etc...

On some of your lines, he settled, but far from a majority. Assuming he didn't care about you, half of his lines should overlap yours(as he came before you). Seems it's less. So my uneducated guess is that he just went where he planned to go, whether you're there or not. I do the same. If I planned 5 daily Algiers-Tunis, I fly 5 Algiers Tunis. Wether there is opposition or not. I assumed while planning that I would be able to fill 5 birds there, and I fly them. Opposition may appear or disappear, not my problem. And if local airlines(or a competitor in Algiers, but I don't have any for now) decide to fight there, bad luck for everyone.

Honestly, he might have followed you, but from what I see, it's far from being a systematic stalking. Though Sami's logs might prove otherwise. I just see a strong company that expands as forecasted, and a small one that identified the same growth opportunities. I might be wrong, though, I don't have the logs.

Thank you for your answers
I don't know how new company can starts?
I make the choice between  medium size regional airports. LED was fully empty, the most empty airport in Europe throw ALL 3 GM! (I cheked all GM). A lot of free routes. And in 1 day I faced a mirror competition on 70% of my routes. Of course it's I am following him.
If really why there no new starts of game worlds till July? Because I don't know how can I start normally and runs good?
It seemed that LED base was new and not a priority for Nubira. It has 5 bases and they not fully occupied. But after I started it's begin a lot of activities in one day,when Nubira saw me)
Maybe I'm not right. But spent a lot of time to find free routes. TO grow O2. I have 8 planes and number 7 raiting throw world for fleet utilization.
But I don't know how to rise if my sails falling down, not rising. But RI grows up. Where I have  to go???

Competition on its own isn't an attack.

Maybe :))

When the nearst start of any GM? TO try play there, where not only monster-giant-manybilions dol AIRlines are? Here it' s like a game between a very big compnaies. If really I think 1 base can run only one company. (if it has only 6-7 traffic). And why giant companies has so many bases? And why they can open base on so big bases, not regional? I dont know how can starter compeet with giant?

I can compeet a lot of companies on different routes, to look on
But in this case I dont have any chance(

Quote from: Zobelle on April 02, 2018, 01:17:26 PM
Competition on its own isn't an attack.

Depends on how it happens. last GW3, I played in CDG. I was in need of expansion. ORY did seem a good target. There was 2 companies there, one about to die already and the other one with a pack of Q400 strong on the 12 main french domestic lines - and nowhere else. I first filled the international routes, leaving time to the surviving company to react. But there was no reaction. As I was still in need of place for expansion, then, only then, I began to build up routes on the domestic main routes. And yes, 733s can kill Q400s.

I left this company a chance(the other one had no chance whatsoever, wether I would attack or not) to flee somewhere else and survive. The question is : does O2 has a fair chance? The answer is : looks like yes, but I don't have the logs to verify. If effectively all routes where O2 and Nubira are present, and Nubira settled there just after O2, there is a rule violation.

Nubira set it in one day. To all connections

And if it's a violation whats then?

P.S. I whrite to Contact us. Sami profile says to do like this

How long it's usually take to answer?

I think they're usually quick here to respond on important matters. I guess you'd hear by the end of the day.

Then PM Sami (and give him a lot of details). Though you have 20 flights towards 19 destinations, and Nubira is present on 10 of them, including SVO where he is based.

That being said, the usual tactic to face big boys is to use smaller aircraft. While frequency is not the killer some think it is, a well led fleet of Smaller aircraft is unkillable. That's why Nubira has a complement of smaller aircraft, in addition to his single-aisle fleet. Where there is 150 demand, if you fly a single aisle aircraft and the other company a regional jet or a turboprop, you'll be in trouble quicker. Because you won't get much more market share(unless the other plane flies beyond its too small penalty), but will have higher overall costs, despite a smaller cost per seat. Look at a line like Pulkovo-Prague. Local companies fly medium aircraft, Nubira & O2 fly large planes, and both 4 companies have similar market shares. But Newfoundland's Q400 and ORBIS's E170 cost significantly less per flight than your 736 or Nubira's MD90. The czech companies certainly make more money on the line than the russian ones. Despite being costlier per seat.

Also : 737NGs are kickass planes, but very costly at this stage of the game. Nubira flies MD90, and while slightly inferior, those are notably cheaper. A brand new MD90-55 costs 66M$ right now, while a slightly superior 737-900 costs 110M$, and leasing costs are proportional. It's the same kind of different on the used market, though There are not enough airframes to be significant. For a beginning company, it's highly advised to stick to older airframes - assuming they don't drink too much petrol. For this category, Y42s and MD80s now drink too much, but 737 classics, while inferior and slower than 737 NGs, are half the price of their more recent counterparts. Look at how much money you spend in leasing costs, imagin halving those costs, for increasing fuel costs by 10% and maintenance by 20%. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised. The usual wisdom is to begin a company by leasing old crap, and there is a reason. Better planes are for established companies, and are better bought - a newcomer usually can't purchase his new airframes. Said otherwise, you should have avoided the 737NGs(as well as the A320s), and jumped into the 737 classics(or the MD90s, like your opponent). You are too small yet to fly state-of-the-art airplanes, as tempting as they may look.

Also : your route to JFK is magnificent, but it's very hard to make good money with 737-700ER at all, even when owned, and especially when fuel prices are above 1000$ There is a reason not many companies IRL do that kind of flights. I did a lot of them in the past, but it was just to spread my activities after having covered all lower-range destinations. With owned 737-700ER, and 7 days 7 planes schedules, and I was hardly in the green when fuel prices were above 1000$. And I'd like to add that there is business demand on the line that you leave on the table with your 120 seats setting.

Note that he took a risk going to 4 fleet groups, and the bigger he will be, the harsher the commonality penalty will be against him. But for now, he's strong enough(and not big enough, the devil really flies around 600 airframes) to survive the penalty.

QuoteThat being said, the usual tactic to face big boys is to use smaller aircraft. While frequency is not the killer some think it is, a well led fleet of Smaller aircraft is unkillable. That's why Nubira has a complement of smaller aircraft, in addition to his single-aisle fleet. Where there is 150 demand, if you fly a single aisle aircraft and the other company a regional jet or a turboprop, you'll be in trouble quicker. Because you won't get much more market share(unless the other plane flies beyond its too small penalty), but will have higher overall costs, despite a smaller cost per seat. Look at a line like Pulkovo-Prague. Local companies fly medium aircraft, Nubira & O2 fly large planes, and both 4 companies have similar market shares. But Newfoundland's Q400 and ORBIS's E170 cost significantly less per flight than your 736 or Nubira's MD90. The czech companies certainly make more money on the line than the russian ones. Despite being costlier per seat.

Understand it. But, in my opinion, with B737-600/700/800 it's faster to grow, while there are not so many E170 or even E140, or Bombardirs
It's my next step. Othervise on my entry point from LED a lot of routes was empty
I want to have 20 B737-NG and than follow to Embraer or Bombardier because of a lot routes with low demand

QuoteAlso : 737NGs are kickass planes, but very costly at this stage of the game. Nubira flies MD90, and while slightly inferior, those are notably cheaper. A brand new MD90-55 costs 66M$ right now, while a slightly superior 737-900 costs 110M$, and leasing costs are proportional. It's the same kind of different on the used market, though There are not enough airframes to be significant. For a beginning company, it's highly advised to stick to older airframes - assuming they don't drink too much petrol. For this category, Y42s and MD80s now drink too much, but 737 classics, while inferior and slower than 737 NGs, are half the price of their more recent counterparts. Look at how much money you spend in leasing costs, imagin halving those costs, for increasing fuel costs by 10% and maintenance by 20%. I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised. The usual wisdom is to begin a company by leasing old crap, and there is a reason. Better planes are for established companies, and are better bought - a newcomer usually can't purchase his new airframes. Said otherwise, you should have avoided the 737NGs(as well as the A320s), and jumped into the 737 classics(or the MD90s, like your opponent). You are too small yet to fly state-of-the-art airplanes, as tempting as they may look.

But on the used market is boeing 737-300|400|500 are so hard to find. And prises between b737-300 and b737-600 not very different on lesed models
And I thought that MD is too hungry. Fuel prises are high... I have to calculate it...

QuoteAlso : your route to JFK is magnificent, but it's very hard to make good money with 737-700ER at all, even when owned, and especially when fuel prices are above 1000$ There is a reason not many companies IRL do that kind of flights. I did a lot of them in the past, but it was just to spread my activities after having covered all lower-range destinations. With owned 737-700ER, and 7 days 7 planes schedules, and I was hardly in the green when fuel prices were above 1000$. And I'd like to add that there is business demand on the line that you leave on the table with your 120 seats setting.

But it's profitable. Also because of cargo) Demand is so high, that my prises are +40%

QuoteNote that he took a risk going to 4 fleet groups, and the bigger he will be, the harsher the commonality penalty will be against him. But for now, he's strong enough(and not big enough, the devil really flies around 600 airframes) to survive the penalty.

Yes I know. Last year he was non profitable. Only one Q was income all other losses. But he have a lot of fat))) I could compeet only if I become bigger) And now I need profitable routes, without attacks) 


P.S. Now I see that b737-300/400/500 is a lot of them. there was so little when I started(((((((
P.P.S. Every new fleet group incresed cost in 2 times?
P.P.P.S. No matter for new airline how old is my planes? It doesnt affect on anything?

Copying here for general interest:

QuoteHello,

I have reviewed the situation at LED airport in GW#3.

​​The rules state as follows: "Any coordinated "attacks" by single airlines, alliances, or by any other group of airlines, to prevent some airline from operating on a route or to deliberately push some airline out of the simulation are not allowed. Competition is generally free in the sim but any clearly unfair competition measures such as flying routes with huge overcapacity and with very low prices and deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline." https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/#Competition​​​

Your airline was started​​ in 12-May-2011 and the other airline had just months before opened a new base at LED airport, 08-Oct-2010. So while the other airline is not new, he is new at that airport too - so it is normal that they expand their operations.

Looking at the actual data I've found nothing that points to any coordinated attack or anything that is against the rules stated above. You have routes to 19 destinations, and the other airline has indeed started flying to 8 same destinations than you and after you started. BUT the other airline has at the same time (after you had started) opened routes to 25 other destinations (if I counted correctly the long list).

So in game year 2011 the two airlines of you have together opened nearly 50 new destinations from LED and you only share 8 of them.

In conclusion, I did not find anything for us to take actions here.​​

Thank you a lot(
It's just hard to compeet in this angry times((((

Another fair outcome brought to you by the law offices of Sami and Sami.

Quote from: Zobelle on April 02, 2018, 11:40:42 PM
Another fair outcome brought to you by the law offices of Sami and Sami.

Seems like a fair ruling to me.
(still unfortunate for the new airline, but unfortunate things happen)

A few days past.
I invested in marketing.
Had 400-500k profit per week

Now all my routes are flown by nubira
Exept longhaul, kbp and kaliningrad.

My profit is 0.
I dont know how can small company growth? When I have now a mirror competion...

Sneak in, play smaller, go where he can't go, adapt. You're young and have more elasticity, while he already has too many fleets and can't adapt to your swift moves.

Actually Gazzz post was all about that.

Beginning with single aisle aircraft is a clever move at the beginning of a game world, because everyone is equal. You need to grow quick to bypass your opponents, and to do more money quicker. I crushed all starting(and most upcoming)opposition when I began in CDG previous GW3, just by overcapacity and overgrowth, without any specific target.

Beginning late is a very different sport. You are small amongst the big, and need to be as invisible as possible. Growth will be slower, but safer.

Most big companies don't advertise on the forum, bar a few exceptions, and it's not random. Exceptions are mostly "I've got A321neos to sell on the UM, take them quickly, they'll cost you bar", or roleplay. Announcements like "Almaty airlines opened its third line" that you see a lot in beginner's world do not happen there, because seasoned players know that it would only attract attention to their operations. Attraction is more opposition. Noone wants that.

So, I stick to my advice(which Tha_ape summarized very well) : your current market is overloaded, try to find another market. And don't spend more than 10% of your expenses in marketing. Play the chamois. Be uncatchable. Grow slow, far, safe. And maybe, 10 years later, come back with lust for revenge. Against a T-Rex, you can't win a head-on fight.

Pretty much what gaz said.

Even Trex airlines can be drummed out of airports..

I had the opposite of what happen to me in GW2 as a larger carrier. Startup came in with tons of leased planes and overloaded the routes to the point where I couldn't make money off the routes due to the overhead it was costing me. I "retreated" and went a different direction with my airline as an act of adaptation.

Look, I see it like this:
1.   My only operation mistake is using boeing737-NG. Because on my start  B-737-300/400/500 was on the same prices. I thought it's a luck of B737-3.4.5. It cost me +1.6M dol per month/ All other is strategy. And it's a game. And we want to play our strategy and we paid for it. If I want small plains I'll go to regional challenge
2.   Whatever rules AS says, my situation in game like in real world cold monopoly. And all economics have some secured rules and regulation of monopolies. Only this provides fair competition. And now regulation in AS.
3.   AS is a business and I'm a costumer. I asked what service provides me AS?? I am a new player what protection I have? New players are interested to play? NO. I spend two weeks on simulation, and it crashed due to 1 player. BUT LED airport was recommended when I started and was the most empty in all GW from all recommended on medium-haul. Now like a costumer I'm demotivated and disappointed. Why I have to start now from scratch? And waiting first results? Due to my mistakes? Or due to no protection from monopoly. And I paid credits to join the GM for....?
4.   What is the interest for Nubira. I think he plays sandbox, not online game. He don't want to see fair competition. He wants to be a giant with nocompetiton. It is not so interesting)
5.   AS rules is to soft. I think it have to contain more concrete points. ETC the biggest competitor in one airport-base (bigger by quantity airframes more than 30%) do not have rights to flight more then 50% of destination which smaller company started to fly first half of year (or first 20 routes). Rules works only for smaller company HQ.

So for new company which started and chosen empty routes are protected, but only basically. For bigger company it's not affect at all. For small company it's a big-big guaranty and secure from monopoly company. Then I would have a base for reform. Now I even have to wait for a year to open base in other region. I have no profit base and no motivation to grow. I seemed Nubira will open 5th base on my new HQ. It have to makes automatically alert for moderators if rules are crossed

SO sorry guys, but be fair with yourself. AS do not protect newcomers. Maybe nobody want's to see new players, so we have only 3GMs. Maybe AS strategy welcomes sandboxes players.
But I'm like a newcomer has no protection. Because big-company have a mask. He started my routes in groups with other routes and in monthly step. So logs a clear and rules are ok. Process maybe ok. But result? I am out of market only because of B737NG? But I was profitably when even 30% of routes was no monopoly competed

Thanks

If anything there are too many protections.

Quote from: Zobelle on April 04, 2018, 07:30:22 PM
If anything there are too many protections.

I do disagree, as I think protections are important, but your main point remains : there are protections. Limited protections. AWS is a competitive game, with winners and losers. And most players did Bankrupt several times before thriving. Learning is hard, that's what makes the game so interesting. I personally never Bankrupted, but I've been very cautious in my first games to learn in places far enough from the big boys. With very defensive tactics. Slowly but surely, I did grow up, and now I can face most players fearlessly(there are still a few ones I would not like to see settle in one of my bases).

Noone is entitled survival in this game, and that's why it's so interesting. It's challenging. I'm not playing in GW1(not enough time, with a young baby at home to feed), but if I had to settle now in GW1, I'd be in great danger, and it would be fascinating. 2 GW3 ago, I did face a player as good as me in Detroit, and had to be very cautious not to enter in a war with him - a war that certainly would have killed us both. I am a customer too, and I like this feeling of danger. Probably one day I'll be defeated - noone is invincible. It will be a great lesson to me. A lesson I'm ready to learn. If you play not to lose, then don't play competitive games.

So you really want to say that new company which has fsce 2 face competiton with giant is loser?
And it do not need some bsdic protection to keep on trsck and make reforms.
I do not affraid to loose.
I afraid of waisting time.

So it,s your position.
But interesting how many newcommers go out from as and even do not whrite here. For me its 3d time.

All you says is good. But game is not comfort for new players, in my opinion. And you dont want to see it

And you comment a lot. But I still dont undetstood what do you think about situation with one company on 85% of routes has competiton with giant.

From the quick look I had and the previous information on this thread:

- Nubira started operations at LED before O2
- The routes served by both are the normal main destinations every airline would fly to: ATH, MAD, FRA, BCN....etc
- All the routes I saw, had only one flight per competitor so I cannot see any "attack".

I only see a big airline expanding normally from a new base it opened.

This is an airline business simulation and competition is of course a big part of it.

Enjoy the challenge and adapt or look for a different airport, the world is huge :)

Cheers!
Mike

I think I' m... i even don' t know who.
Normally expand...
Do you red my posts?

But I understand, you do not want to change smth. You don't want to regulate monopolies so new playres can enter. It's a club. One giant one airport. Nothing else.

My post still about- no protection of face to face compitition with monopoly. It's hard to compeet. So small companies crashed fast.
It's look like big companies do not want competition

Biggest protection one can afford themselves is to be cautious and do not overextend yourself.

Don't dive in the deep end before you learn to swim.

@ Pasterya

Last GW#4 was my 1st ever GW, after 2 weeks in BW. I was new to this game and started mid-game in some system-suggested place in China. Became the 3rd airline there in a really short time, because (unlike you) I've been lucky enough not to have heavy competition in my HQ nor in my 2nd base. Then, I expanded and slowly faced harder competition, but in the meanwhile I learned some stuff and managed my way quite nicely.

In the same GW, I "killed" a newcomer just like you are right now. Because I wanted? No. I felt sorry for the guy, sent him a PM and everything. I killed him because I opened a base 2 real hours after he started. Did I do this on purpose? No, I planned this opening for months, had all the planes ready (around 28 or 35), some basic schedules already built, all the potential destinations written down, etc.
But what could I do? Should I have cancelled my plans because he started there?

And again, this was my first ever GW, I was still quite unexperienced (I still am).

Having started in LED while Nubira was still small, LED seemed empty, seemed a good option. Unfortunately (and without having access to the GW in question), I suspect as the others that Nubira already planned his expansion. You could not reasonably ask him not to fly the very basic routes out of LED and let you all alone.

I get it that you've been unlucky (both with St Pete and the 737NG), but that's the reason why you should try other tactics. Competition means that one loses. And in this game, you can lose even without competition, if you manage your airline badly.
Basically, no player can directly kill you, an airline can be killed only if it's weak. And "weak" doesn't necessarily means small, it means defenseless or badly managed.

Sure, in some situations, even for seasoned players, it can be really difficult to sneak in. But you cannot ask to have a playground reserved for yourself. Sometimes competitions goes well, sometimes not. Sometimes 2 players live together and make deals (direct or tacit agreement), sometimes both die.

Running out of luck is bad, but it doesn't mean there is no room. So you can either stay in St Pete and develop new tactics he won't be able to counter (as previously said), or BK and restart in another country or base (you have 5 tries in total for the same GW before having to purchase the access again).

China is a large country and I've been very lucky that it was so underpopulated and you might not have the same chance, but then go for a smaller place. Before being able to compete, you need to learn. And to learn, you need to survive. If you just die and keep dying, the problem is not about the others but about you. No matter how many players there are in a GW, there is always a place to play. Island hopping in Papua New Guinea? A little bit of everything in Nairobi? Some place in South America?

Go where you can practice, don't be afraid to fall, face new challenges. Starting mid-game is usually not easy, but there are always a lot of opportunities. Go grab them and fight for your life (or for the life of your airline), and you'll manage your way in.

What makes this game so interesting is the competitive aspect. But this necessarily implies some bad times, you just have to overcome them and look further away.

nubira has -14% profitability right now in GW3 because of the high fuel prices. He has 1.7BN in the bank but lost 340mill last quarter on operations, and spent 400mill on new planes etc. So if the fuel prices stay this high for a year, he could be out of cash....

Simon

The dangers of overextending...

Quote from: groundbum2 on April 05, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
nubira has -14% profitability right now in GW3 because of the high fuel prices. He has 1.7BN in the bank but lost 340mill last quarter on operations, and spent 400mill on new planes etc. So if the fuel prices stay this high for a year, he could be out of cash....

Simon

Where can you see the cash in the bank for an airline? I can't see it on any of the stars pages

"Current Assets" in the general information tab for an airline. It's not exactly cash in the bank. (prepaid expenses such as prepaid lease expenses are also in there), but it's close enough as a proxy

Good question :)  What are you calling cash on hand? Current assets?

thanks

I hate to say it, but some players set themselves up to fail.

Had one airline in BW2 that didn't adapt as I set up in his base of YVR.  After going bankrupt he tries starting over in YVR again, with brand new CRJs.  As many experienced players can imagine that didn't last long.  Now he's started in YHZ (Which I do not have a base in, or immediate plans to open one).  He's flying a very lightly used 787, and new CRJs again.  Instead of focusing on flights from YHZ to cities where I do not have a base, he's tried flying the YYZ and YUL routes, both of which I fly with paid for 737s.  He could probably read that scheduling tutorial, as his company image has dropped to -11.  I haven't changed my operations in regards to YHZ at all since his airline started, but he's still losing money.

sometimes, it's more subtle than that. The most tricky way to build you own path to BK is by growth with 4 fleet groups.

Everyone know 4 fleet groups is bad, but when you're 100-250 sized, it's not that bad. So many players accept to pay the extra cost to help them covering more market niches. IMHO, in my current position in Algeria, I could probably take the risk, as I have no opposuition, and I'll have tough tim to plan more than 300 planes anyways.

The trap is that it works. For a good number of years, it works. Then, the company reaches 400 airplanes, 500 airplanes, 524 (https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Info/Airline/View/157/257/#AirlineInfo), and the penalty becomes punitive, and opposition suddenly seems stronger, and you enter the spiral of death. It's extremely frequent because it's so easy to think "hehehe, I'm more clever than those guys who limit themselves to 1 or 2 fleet groups, I'm gonna steal all the market, Muwhawhawhawha!!!", and make it succeed for 10-15 years. And, all of a sudden, Boom. I've seen it countless times, even when I was a mentor. The cost sunk fallacy kicks in strongly, there. Those players have invested so much in all their fleet group that they can't imagine giving up one. By failure of cutting of one ill leg, they let themselves die. Usually, they have a fleet group that is far less important in terms of profit than others, and they'd just have to reschedule it, or simply give it up, to start back on a healthy base. Most of them don't. And die.

Early in the game, it can be a net gain to go for 4 fleet groups. I did it in my polish GW2 game, to grow faster. But you need an exit plan before you grow too big. I rationalized everything into either F27s or B727s before I went too big, and avoided on purpose serving lines beyond 2400NM. That's a market my opponent took. But, at the end, having one more fleet group was dragging him to the bottom. It's not what killed him, but it would have later, hadn't he done other errors.

That's what I love with this game. You have to be cautious about what market you are serving. You need to make interesting decisions. Nothing is costless. Shall I go LH? In GW3, in Algeria, I did, because it was juicy enough for a limited risk - it's easy to keep fleet groups until the end of the game, now. In Poland, in the 60s, it would have killed me. So I gave up that market. Refocusing on the strong points of the polish market made me stronger, not weaker. The fear to miss out something is a very bad advisor. I'll never fly WAW-JFK. I miss it. I'll always miss it. That's why I'm above 20% in company margin. Accepting my own weaknesses makes me stronger.

EDIT : just had a look, and Nubira seems indeeed to take that path...Survive him 2 more years, and the russian market will be all yours.

I'm about to BK in GW3, due fuel prices, but with 4 fleet groups 8-( My competitor commonality costs with 3 fleet groups is 35M/month (I asked, he told me, nice chap) mine are 170M/month! Shame cos all 500+ of my planes is in profit by and large. So that's a new lesson learnt!

Simon

Quote from: groundbum2 on April 06, 2018, 12:47:22 PM
I'm about to BK in GW3, due fuel prices, but with 4 fleet groups 8-( My competitor commonality costs with 3 fleet groups is 35M/month (I asked, he told me, nice chap) mine are 170M/month! Shame cos all 500+ of my planes is in profit by and large. So that's a new lesson learnt!

Simon

I own the biggest fleet in GW3 and my commonality cost is $130M. Having 4 fleets is flushing money down a toilet no matter what stage of the game you're in.

QuoteFrom the quick look I had and the previous information on this thread:

- Nubira started operations at LED before O2
- The routes served by both are the normal main destinations every airline would fly to: ATH, MAD, FRA, BCN....etc
- All the routes I saw, had only one flight per competitor so I cannot see any "attack".

I only see a big airline expanding normally from a new base it opened.

This is an airline business simulation and competition is of course a big part of it.

Enjoy the challenge and adapt or look for a different airport, the world is huge :)

Cheers!
Mike

Mike, thanks
Of course competition is the base of this game. But, look on the strategies of most players. The strategy is to find base. In China, Africa wherever  else.
But it's a good idea to grow a smaller base first and then go to bigger market.
All I wanted to say – rules of protection of new company no t really works

Now my airline "stands on lags" a little bit. Thanks for your advises. But competition was not so fair. There are still free routes. But he do not start it. But when I opened the route, he opened it in 2-3 month. But ok, let's talk about the strategy.
I agree with thought about regional jets. So I started to test this concept, also opened a new base.
Have some problems, so started a new topic, because it's no more about competition (fair I mean)

just noticed that Nubira bankrupted, you'll be able to find some fresh air you really need. Took far longer than I expected - nearly 10 years - but you got him. You didn't need any kind of protection. Now it's time to fill the holes he might have left behind.

Thank you for bumping this post since it seems like i missed it the first time Gazz.

GW2 is my first try at this sim, and the simple fact is that as a newcomer you are protected, no matter what it feels like.
I started 10 years into the game, at a point where planes were few, fuel was on the rise and almost all the routes were fully saturated. And i still made it by diversifying my routes as much as possible, and starting off with the best aircraft's available for my routes at that point in terms of speed, range and fuel. That plane would end up being the AN-10A for me, a somewhat unpopular plane that proved to be the bedrock for my airline for about 14 years before switching to the B732 when other people started to retire their older ones.

The way i see it, you have to find a balance in what kind of airline you want to build, were is it feasible for you to actually build that airline and what aircraft best suits those needs.

And starting at a bigger airport when the sim has already been going for a while is really not worth the time or energy in most cases, just start at a slightly smaller airport with no competitors and work your way up from there.

The game mechanics mean that if there is a 1000 demand route, 5000 supply and a newcomer comes to market with a  150 seat plane, the 150 seat will get filled. New players can do really well for themselves by diversifying their route portfolio and flying everywhere just once. Of course, most players don't know this.

Quote from: yearofthecactus on June 13, 2018, 08:08:15 AM
The game mechanics mean that if there is a 1000 demand route, 5000 supply and a newcomer comes to market with a  150 seat plane, the 150 seat will get filled. New players can do really well for themselves by diversifying their route portfolio and flying everywhere just once. Of course, most players don't know this.

(it's not THAT cut and clear, but the trend is indeed that one, and the advice is sound)

Or most players don't like it, because it requires you to do your homework. to map the whole demand. To look for every possible destinations from your position. It's long and tedious. But it's mandatory. One cannot get 72% of market share in his HQ without that(my market share in ALG, GW3). I've even got a flight to Aswan! 70 demand, 70 seats, red eyes flight, keeps my A148 busy during the night, makes OK money(23k$ per flight - I consider 25k$ the maximum for A148s) outside insane conditions.

Do your homework, and the world(well, your base) will be yours.