I love the game and am quite addicted to it, but here are main problems i see, i would call them the BIG 3:
- lack of possibility to develop 2nd hub (I can hardly keep developing at MUN and don't want to send my planes all the time to other airports with 0% L/F due to too low pax demand for many connections each day, in order to further connect to another airport)
- lack of possibility to schedule in advance (this is a SERIOUS problem, I can't wait in front of my PC until the exact moment a plane arrives or a schedule is finished, I have to be able to do that in advance)
- lack of development of demand (demand seems to be fixed, hardly any fluctuation on routes - gets boring after a while)
anyone agree? i believe above issues should be amongst the first to look at when further developing the game.
Demand is not fixed ... It is currently based on a "global airline travel index" and it changes steadily over time (up or down). Next version will also include country specific economic changes that affect this.
I agree with the first two issues. As third problem I like to add the alliance feature, as it´s at the moment under developed. I know features will be added in later updates, but for now it still misses the ´cooperation part´.
The second issue is your own. You can schedule when a plane is going to be delivered so you can plan accordingly.
but then you need to be exactly on time when it arrives. Real life is not that predictable. Besides I'm talking about planning of C checks as well. Now they start automatically and the plane is taken off its routes. Unless I am there at the time, or I can do the C check a little in advance, I will loose income and image because the route will not be flown.
Please understand, if you have 10 aircraft you can schedule everything more or less according to when you will be online, but when you have 130 aircraft it is not possible anymore.
Then have 1 plane extra for ever 15 planes.
When you wake up, go to bed, or get home from work, you can simply move the route from one plane to another.
or just ask sami to do it for you, in fact can we have a button that does everything for us!!!! ???
jeez it does'nt take a lot to plan these things, and obviously not a lot to make it difficult.
Sami -
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing this change in demand you mention. I watch my routes quite closely, and I can tell you firmly that not one has shown growth.
Ban & Swiftus -
I don't think it is unreasonable to mention the idea of scheduling in advance. Why you guys seem to think this is the mark of laziness is beyond me. And no, it is not just 'his' problem.
Consider the used market.....
You have to grab aircraft when they come available. That often means that the MD-88 I need is available just about the time I need to get to bed. So what do I do? Well of course, I lease the aircraft. And then it sits, losing money, until I am able to attend to it. A method to advance schedule the aircraft would eliminate that waste.
It might not be possible to do, but to suggest that we are asking for someone to do everything for us, or that we are 'jeez' lazy is ridiculous. Just because it is not important to you, does not make it unimportant.
Now....
If I could get one thing added to the game, it'd be connecting traffic. Sami, would it not be possible to add this to the game as perhaps a 'bonus' to demand for airline at a specific airport based on the number of daily flights from said airport?
I have seen the demand fluctuation on 1 of my routes went from 160 pax/day up to 180/day.
I run 752s which are also very hard to get hold of but they do come up and becuase i've had to wait my business is that much better off having to wait. You can also delay delivery for up to 17 weeks and if my maths is right...
Game time Real time
1 week = 2hrs 55min
2 weeks = 5hrs 50min
4 weeks = 11hrs 40min
8 weeks = 24hrs
forgive if if my maths is out there, so by delaying your delivery you have it arriving when you're ready for it.
I agree with you about the connecting pax and i'm sure it has been brought up before and is being considered as we speak.
Quote from: ban2 on January 26, 2009, 06:17:32 PM
I have seen the demand fluctuation on 1 of my routes went from 160 pax/day up to 180/day.
I run 752s which are also very hard to get hold of but they do come up and becuase i've had to wait my business is that much better off having to wait. You can also delay delivery for up to 17 weeks and if my maths is right...
Game time Real time
1 week = 2hrs 55min
2 weeks = 5hrs 50min
4 weeks = 11hrs 40min
8 weeks = 24hrs
forgive if if my maths is out there, so by delaying your delivery you have it arriving when you're ready for it.
I agree with you about the connecting pax and i'm sure it has been brought up before and is being considered as we speak.
One major thing you are forgetting though, is that when you delay delivery, you are still paying for leasing costs. So the plane is still losing money. At least, that is how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong here.....
As for your business being better off because you had to wait; the same simply isn't true for me. My mantra thus far has been to expand as aggressively as possible, since I started a week behind the curve. To be honest, if you aren't ready for the aircraft, I can't see why you would order them. I order when I forecast a need, and with the delays for new aircraft, that usually means that I look to the used market first. I do now have about 40 new aircraft coming, but of course not for some time. So to continue my growth, you guessed it.....alot of used aircraft that have to hold the fort down for another year or so. At one point, I grabbed 6 aircraft off the market that I needed badly to continue expansion.....and all 6 sat there burning money until I was up again the next morning to get them to their assigned routes (I do all the routes ahead of time of course.) So far this strategy has worked well for me, as I'm #10 in passengers carried, despite being based from a relatively small airport.
Anyway, as said before it might not be possible, but would be a huge help if it were included in the game.
Interesting that you saw the demand go up. Hopefully I will see it soon as well!
Quote from: deepblue501 on January 26, 2009, 10:00:21 AM
- lack of possibility to schedule in advance (this is a SERIOUS problem, I can't wait in front of my PC until the exact moment a plane arrives or a schedule is finished, I have to be able to do that in advance)
I fully agree on this. Actually it has already been requested during beta testing by several people. Hopefully Sami will find a solution some day.
To people not seeing this as an important feature: Not everyone can stay at their computer every minute or log in whenever they like!
It's pretty useless to order planes, if you cannot be at your computer when it is delivered. It will stay on the ground just causing expenses until you're back. For me it can be 24 hours, so 6 weeks lost in game time for used plane. I make my schedules ready for the new plane in advance. I would also like to be able to assign them to the plane before it is delivered. Delaying delivery doesn't help too much, as plane doesn't make any money before it has routes assigned.
If I start to wait for the moment when I'm sure I will be at the computer when the plane is delivered, I can't order any plane at all.
Quote from: deepblue501 on January 26, 2009, 10:00:21 AM
- lack of possibility to schedule in advance (this is a SERIOUS problem, I can't wait in front of my PC until the exact moment a plane arrives or a schedule is finished, I have to be able to do that in advance)
ok i owe you an apology i misunderstood your question..sorry.
i agree it would be great to pre assign a schedule to an aircraft you've already ordered.
one more flaw THERE ARE NO GAMES
(you can start by reading the site news / announcements for that matter, info on that has been posted a week ago already)
What? There is a 3rd game starting?
WOW... where could anyone find news of that?
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 26, 2009, 08:37:55 PM
What? There is a 3rd game starting?
WOW... where could anyone find news of that?
Well at least I came to understand why pre-scheduling aircraft isn't a big deal to you. You only have 16 planes to figure out.
Holler back when you managing 70 or more, and see if your opinion doesn't change a bit.
Quote- lack of possibility to develop 2nd hub (I can hardly keep developing at MUN and don't want to send my planes all the time to other airports with 0% L/F due to too low pax demand for many connections each day, in order to further connect to another airport)
Hmm.. while you may not be able create a 2nd full "hub", you can create hubs through continuations. This can be very effective when done right. Your not limited to just flying hub-point-hub flights..
Also, if you want more demand.. base at a bigger airport. Every airport has its own limit to what it can support.
Quotelack of possibility to schedule in advance (this is a SERIOUS problem, I can't wait in front of my PC until the exact moment a plane arrives or a schedule is finished, I have to be able to do that in advance)
While it maybe useful, I dont see a problem with it myself. Given Sunday's comments, I dont have a tough time routing and planing aircraft. I tend to schedule aircraft around the time I know ill be home.. (IE: If I get off work at 10pm.. then I have the delivery come at 11pm..)
The only problem is with new aircraft. Because the delivery is so far in advance. Though, theres really nothing you can do about it. Its too far in advance to predict.
Quotelack of development of demand (demand seems to be fixed, hardly any fluctuation on routes - gets boring after a while)
Boring? Hmm.. must be at a small airport I assume? ~ Demand is based on (mostly) real data. It grows everyday/week/month/year as Sami stated.
Are you going to see major jumps in demand after a week.. or month? No.. of course not. You dont see it in RL. However, I can tell you that demand indeed grows. I've watched the demand grow all though out beta2 at IAH. It grows. Trust me. Routes in 1965 that were 50 daily. Ended up being 250 daily by 1975.
Were using as close to real data as possible. There is no "made up data so everyone can fly everywhere" in this game.
Talentz
Quote from: Talentz on January 26, 2009, 08:59:34 PM
Hmm.. while you may not be able create a 2nd full "hub", you can create hubs through continuations. This can be very effective when done right. Your not limited to just flying hub-point-hub flights..
Also, if you want more demand.. base at a bigger airport. Every airport has its own limit to what it can support.
While it maybe useful, I dont see a problem with it myself. Given Sunday's comments, I dont have a tough time routing and planing aircraft. I tend to schedule aircraft around the time I know ill be home.. (IE: If I get off work at 10pm.. then I have the delivery come at 11pm..)
The only problem is with new aircraft. Because the delivery is so far in advance. Though, theres really nothing you can do about it. Its too far in advance to predict.
Boring? Hmm.. must be at a small airport I assume? ~ Demand is based on (mostly) real data. It grows everyday/week/month/year as Sami stated.
Are you going to see major jumps in demand after a week.. or month? No.. of course not. You dont see it in RL. However, I can tell you that demand indeed grows. I've watched the demand grow all though out beta2 at IAH. It grows. Trust me. Routes in 1965 that were 50 daily. Ended up being 250 daily by 1975.
Were using as close to real data as possible. There is no "made up data so everyone can fly everywhere" in this game.
Talentz
Thanks for the info Talentz, very interesting stuff about the demand. I see your point about the rate of growth seen....lol, I haven't stopped to think that I'm barely over a year in game time so far, lol.
On a side note of the demand increase, do slots increase over time? Looking at most airports that have been around a while they have expanded and added more gates/slots as the years have passed. Obviously there are always going to be slot issues at airports but I was wondering if this has been looked at or will be in the future.
Quote from: Talentz on January 26, 2009, 08:59:34 PM
Hmm.. while you may not be able create a 2nd full "hub", you can create hubs through continuations. This can be very effective when done right. Your not limited to just flying hub-point-hub flights..
Also, if you want more demand.. base at a bigger airport. Every airport has its own limit to what it can support.
While it maybe useful, I dont see a problem with it myself. Given Sunday's comments, I dont have a tough time routing and planing aircraft. I tend to schedule aircraft around the time I know ill be home.. (IE: If I get off work at 10pm.. then I have the delivery come at 11pm..)
The only problem is with new aircraft. Because the delivery is so far in advance. Though, theres really nothing you can do about it. Its too far in advance to predict.
Boring? Hmm.. must be at a small airport I assume? ~ Demand is based on (mostly) real data. It grows everyday/week/month/year as Sami stated.
Are you going to see major jumps in demand after a week.. or month? No.. of course not. You dont see it in RL. However, I can tell you that demand indeed grows. I've watched the demand grow all though out beta2 at IAH. It grows. Trust me. Routes in 1965 that were 50 daily. Ended up being 250 daily by 1975.
Were using as close to real data as possible. There is no "made up data so everyone can fly everywhere" in this game.
Talentz
Talentz, it's great to do continuations but at a certain time even slots are all taken up. While in theory this shouldn't be a problem, cauz airlines deal for them in airport negotiations, in this game it is, because there is no interactivity, ie i cannot buy slots from another airline for example. That would be a great addition, to make the game more elastic.
Munich where i fly from is definetely not small, while not as large as LHR or FRA it ranks among the top 10 or so in Europe. I wouldn't consider that small... :)
Now for the most important part: the scheduling in advance (thx Pike for understanding :) )
Look, when you expand agressively like Pike or me you get whatever you can get that is reasonable. This means a lot of planes from the used market. While I understand you can deliver them later than 2 weeks, you try to avoid it because you want to expand asap, which seems quite logical to me because most people playing a game want to compete on the top level, right? But even if you schedule delivery for 3/4 or whatever number of weeks, you may still be obstructed to join the game at that moment. Not everybody has a stable 9-5 life and job. Besides, when you have 30 or 40 planes coming towards you it is impossible to schedule them all.
But that is not even really the point. The main problem for me is with scheduled C checks. Guys try to imagine that you have to manage almost 150 aircraft, each of them has either different delivery times or different C checks times. This as a result of your earlier expansion in which you tried to get hold of as many aircraft as you can. Imagine you have a schedule like this:
3 apr - aircraft 1
4 apr - aircraft 2
7 apr - delivery of aircraft
8 apr - aircraft 3
12 apr - aircraft 4
15 apr - aircraft x comes back from C check
16 apr - aircraft b comes back from C check
19 apr - aircraft 5
22 apr - aircraft 6
29 apr - aircraft c comes back from C check
30 apr - delivery aircraft
8 may - aircraft d comes back from C check
9 may - lease expires
14 may - aircraft 7
19 may - aircraft 8
20 may - aircraft 9
20 may - aircraft 10
24 may - aircraft 11
27 may - aircraft e comes back from C check
29 may - delivery aicraft
and so on...it even get's more full, this is just an example. It means spending non stop 24 hrs in front of the PC in order to do 2 months. Now this is impossible. Even if you do not work, or have holidays you still need to go to sleep. In the meantime suddenly B checks start going crazy, C checks become a total chaos, some of your routes are not being flown, your image goes down, aircraft are on the ground earning no money.
And trust me, when you start managing more than 150 aircraft every month is like the one above.
So my point is: pls put scheduling in advance in the game, as it would make life so much easier. You could organize yourself this way that you stay in front of your PC for example on saturday for a few hours and schedule everything in advance, so next time you have to log in will be around sunday evening, without any weird stuff happening in the meantime.
Perhaps another specific example. Right now it is 0.15 at my place. I am tired. However, I have 2 767's coming out of C check in 4 days, and one 767 going into C check in 4 days. Now in a perfect world I would schedule one of the C checked planes to replace the 767 starting the C check and scheduling the other C checked plane for routes. This takes me 10 mins, then I go to bed. However, now I have to wait for 2 more hours to do all this, OR (and honestly, this is the better option) I go to bed and wake up in the morning. However at that time we are not 4 days further along the road but 16 days and the routes from my 767 going into C check will not be flown and the OTHER two C-checked planes will be standing on the ground doing nothing, UNTIL i can get to the pc again in the morning. Now, sorry guys, but this simply doesn't make sense to me.
Sorry for taking so long, but again, for the longeivity of the game this is a very very important issue.
Hi everyone...
Good to see some different points being brought up to fine tune Airway Sim and make it even better.
I would like to add another, and this one really gets my gripe up!!! First of all I have seen a number of different airlines do this and to me is the most pathetic strategy out there. The example I give below is NOT a competitor of mine, so this is not an attack to remove them, etc....it's to point out that this area of the sim needs an immediate revamp.
Take a look below, the first example is morning departures ALL to the SAME destination. And then in the 2nd batch, amazingly the afternoon flights to the same destination.
1234567 ZZZ1173 0610 0810 A320
1234567 ZZZ1157 0620 0820 A320
1234567 ZZZ1313 0625 0825 A321
1234567 ZZZ1175 0640 0840 A320
1234567 ZZZ1349 0640 0840 A321
1234567 ZZZ1159 0650 0850 A320
1234567 ZZZ1309 0650 0850 A321
1234567 ZZZ1177 0710 0910 A320
1234567 ZZZ1161 0720 0920 A320
1234567 ZZZ1317 0720 0920 A321
1234567 ZZZ1179 0740 0940 A320
1234567 ZZZ1163 0750 0950 A320
1234567 ZZZ1315 1445 1645 A321
1234567 ZZZ1183 1500 1700 A320
1234567 ZZZ1351 1500 1700 A321
1234567 ZZZ1167 1510 1710 A320
1234567 ZZZ1311 1510 1710 A321
1234567 ZZZ1185 1530 1730 A320
1234567 ZZZ1169 1540 1740 A320
1234567 ZZZ1319 1540 1740 A321
1234567 ZZZ1187 1600 1800 A320
1234567 ZZZ1171 1610 1810 A320
Then the 3rd example...give me a break, an airline running pretty much 7 separate flights to the same destination all in 747's!!!
1234-67 ZZZ1131 1010 1355 B743
123-567 ZZZ1105 1015 1400 B743
12345-7 ZZZ1225 1045 1430 B743
1-34567 ZZZ1101 1100 1445 B743
123456- ZZZ1227 1115 1500 B743
12-4567 ZZZ1103 1130 1515 B743
-234567 ZZZ1033 1200 1545 B743
What I'm getting at, you simply should NOT be able to schedule like this...domestic routes, with awesome demand maybe different with smaller aircraft. But this is totally unrealistic, and prevents others from joining the sim and making a good contribution.
What many have to realise is that, winning the sim is not about having the most aircraft or money, because EVERY airline is different. You cannot compare an international operation with a purely domestic op. Anyone who starts at the beginning with a leased 747 can make good $$$...
Having an op with 30 aircraft making a 30% profit margin, owning important airport slots, etc is better than someone who has 300 aircraft making a 3% profit margin and simply dumps capacity and schedules stupid just to make up numbers.
Right, my rant over...
I still would like the second hub option.. but I am sure that is farther down Sami's list...
the more i play the more i realize that THE main flaw is the lack of advance scheduling.
At this moment winning this game is not about Strategy or cunning reasoning, clever tactics and good routes, but it is simply about being as much in front of the PC as possible!
honestly, with all the scheduling going on, the delivery of a/c, to really be winning at this game you need to be in front of the PC all the time, and i believe that should not be the aim of the game. You should be able to win because you invest well, buy the right planes, set up the right routes, choose a good base etc. It should be possible to do all this in advance, so you can go online once in a while and still have a chance at being one of the best.
I call upon all the airlines which are in the top 10 to confirm above. If they do not agree i will withdraw my thesis, but I am pretty sure that most of the top 10 guys have spent hours and hours online.
Ok time for my "3 main flaws":
1. Balancing - While some make a lot of money doing things (as mentioned above) that in the real world would not work (as no airport would allow a airline taking up all slots with small planes if they have the facilitys for bigger ones) other things that in the real world would find a lot of interest (and actually have good numbers like my non stop london - tokyo flight) translate to me loosing millions?! how is it possible that if more ppl want to fly than can be transported and my image beeing as high as financially possible and my routes beeing marketed that i still loose so much money?
I have some awesome long range routes with high demand that are flown by lots of my planes but still i loose so much money its crazy! My staff costs are thru the roof and i dont even know why ... all im saying is it feels like it needs rebalancing ... i made wads of cash when i had about 20 airplanes less ?! but they all fly profitable routes!?! Its confusing as you dont get the information you need to figure out whats wrong if anything ...
2. Route Oversight - Once you get to a point where you have hundreds of routes it gets a little confusing ... it would help if there was a quick oversight giving not much information but instead only pointing out things that need checking out (yes i know there are different views but with so many routes even these dont help you gain oversight)
3. Costs - Some costs are just weird ... for example: Why does the C check of a 747 cost less than of a MD10-30? Its a difference of 1 less engine and half the capacity so even if it would be the same price it would still be weird! Another such thing is staff cost ... I realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well? Dont ticket prices go up with time as well as payment for your employees? Seems not, cause if I dare raise my prices by 10% all routes drop close to 0% LF!
I can not be in front of my computer.
I order aircraft smartly (at least used)
Figure out the time compression and you are set.
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 30, 2009, 12:49:04 AM
I can not be in front of my computer.
I order aircraft smartly (at least used)
Figure out the time compression and you are set.
I'm sorry, but you are no where near in the position to make that statement. Your airline in Game 2 is a fraction of the size of either Blue's or mine for that matter. You have 26 airplanes in Game 2. 26. Yeah, that SHOULD be pretty easy. I had to replace/rearrange 26 airplanes as just PART of my operations today.
So no, it's not that simple for a big operator with over 100 planes. It's just not.
Over the last 3 months, I have had to replace all of my DC-9's (12), half of my MD-80's (28), and all of my Fokker 50's (8). And replace about 8 of my A310's that were getting too old. I ordered plenty smartly, as evidenced by my airline that has a 81% market share at a major airport, and carries more than 300,000 pax per week. As I told you last time, when you have done that, holler back. If the market were able to bear it, I would love being able to buy 3-4 planes per month to make C-checks and lease expirations easier. As is, that isn't the way things are. If I pass on those 8 A320's that just dropped on the market, how long will it be to pick up the ones I pass on? What routes might be yanked from me while I'm waiting on them?
Quote from: Athriaxo on January 30, 2009, 12:45:24 AM
3. Costs - Some costs are just weird ... for example: Why does the C check of a 747 cost less than of a MD10-30? Its a difference of 1 less engine and half the capacity so even if it would be the same price it would still be weird! Another such thing is staff cost ... I realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well?
The maintenance cost model is not that simple what you think.
You have probably compared a new 747 and old DC-10 .. which makes a huge difference to the costs. If you compare let's say new 747-200 and DC-10 then the 747 is more costly to maintain as it's bigger, but comparing 15y old -10 and a new 747-400 .. will most likely be the other way.
The staff amounts are modeled against real staff numbers, roughly. If you have a fleet of large planes (what I see you have if you are talking of dc10/747), they do require quite much flight crew as they are mainly used on longhaulers which require way longer layover times etc.
Quote from: Pike on January 30, 2009, 03:08:09 AM
I'm sorry, but you are no where near in the position to make that statement. Your airline in Game 2 is a fraction of the size of either Blue's or mine for that matter. You have 26 airplanes in Game 2. 26. Yeah, that SHOULD be pretty easy. I had to replace/rearrange 26 airplanes as just PART of my operations today.
So no, it's not that simple for a big operator with over 100 planes. It's just not.
Over the last 3 months, I have had to replace all of my DC-9's (12), half of my MD-80's (28), and all of my Fokker 50's (8). And replace about 8 of my A310's that were getting too old. I ordered plenty smartly, as evidenced by my airline that has a 81% market share at a major airport, and carries more than 300,000 pax per week. As I told you last time, when you have done that, holler back. If the market were able to bear it, I would love being able to buy 3-4 planes per month to make C-checks and lease expirations easier. As is, that isn't the way things are. If I pass on those 8 A320's that just dropped on the market, how long will it be to pick up the ones I pass on? What routes might be yanked from me while I'm waiting on them?
I am glad you went with the "im bigger than you" defense. I also play in all 3 games right now and have about 70 planes across all of them and many more on order.
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
If you want to complain a ton, then offer an alternative that makes good sense and wouldn't require an armada of programmers.
Quote from: sami on January 30, 2009, 10:46:59 AM
The maintenance cost model is not that simple what you think.
You have probably compared a new 747 and old DC-10 .. which makes a huge difference to the costs. If you compare let's say new 747-200 and DC-10 then the 747 is more costly to maintain as it's bigger, but comparing 15y old -10 and a new 747-400 .. will most likely be the other way.
The staff amounts are modeled against real staff numbers, roughly. If you have a fleet of large planes (what I see you have if you are talking of dc10/747), they do require quite much flight crew as they are mainly used on longhaulers which require way longer layover times etc.
Ah, ok I see ... well guess Its: "Wait in line for new planes leaving production" just like everybody else ... its kinda stupid thou, since this way the used airplanes become useless since we lease em anyways theres not much difference in leasing cost but at the same time huge maintainance difference ... i think beeing able to lease new planes isnt possible in reality is it?
Maybe the difference that age makes in maintainance cost could be tuned down quite a lot to rebalance things more towards used planes, cus as it is the maintainance costs of my planes in my past airline attempt ruined me as i was only using used planes ... and i didnt even know why until now xD
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 30, 2009, 01:46:35 PM
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
So is everyone else, and that is why we need pre-scheduling.
Personally, I think of this in a different way.
Let's try to be constructive and find another thing that we can have/pay for while we are gone
For instance, if we get used planes, have an extra $50k be deducted from us each day so that we get a 2-5% increase airplane condition
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 30, 2009, 01:46:35 PM
I am glad you went with the "im bigger than you" defense. I also play in all 3 games right now and have about 70 planes across all of them and many more on order.
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
If you want to complain a ton, then offer an alternative that makes good sense and wouldn't require an armada of programmers.
Well of course I did---it's relevant to the argument for crying out loud.
Are you dense or someone who just likes to argue?
No, I personally don't like to argue...
I just dont want another protracted hardcore vs casual gamer war.
No one ever wins that one, and the truth is that I am on your side. They made so many MMOs only good for those who can afford to put in 100 hours per week. I don't play them. Goallineblitz is a great example of a game that both casual and hardcore can both play. It too is an online HTML-based game.
Listen, I have a full time job, a part time job 6 months of the year, a house, wife...... you get the picture. I have a life unlike a lot of people who play MMOs non-stop for hours on end. Personally, I'd hope Sami would focus his efforts elsewhere.
QuoteAh, ok I see ... well guess Its: "Wait in line for new planes leaving production" just like everybody else ... its kinda stupid thou, since this way the used airplanes become useless since we lease em anyways theres not much difference in leasing cost but at the same time huge maintainance difference
I dont follow.. Of the 230+ some odd aircraft I have, over 150 aircraft I pulled from the used market. Of which all my 747s (60+) came from the used market as well.
You dont
have to wait in line for new aircraft. Planes come on the used market every 3 hours. The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also
after Sami made the days "random". Before it was on x day always. ::)
Maintenance of older aircraft can kill you in the long term. Each aircraft has a bracket. 1~8//9~16//17~24 . Its best to replace aircraft after 8 years. But not always practical. Each of those brackets has a different % increase in maintenance. Think in terms of simplicity, (10%), (20%) (30%) (more then original 0.00 yr base cost maintenance). Keep that in mind with leasing aircraft. Know when to "cut and run" on them.
QuoteI realy dont understand how I can have 21 million in staff cost each month but when i had a few airplanes less (realy that was one hell of a sudden change) i had 14 million staff cost? How can it raise so quickly? I mean ok they get more money than be4 i guess but shouldnt I make more money as well? Dont ticket prices go up with time as well as payment for your employees? Seems not, cause if I dare raise my prices by 10% all routes drop close to 0% LF!
Well, I assume you have it on "auto" right? Auto is not the most efficient way to run an airline. It hires 5% more then what you need and approves all raises, no questions asked.
Now, because of this.. when you were small.. 5% of 10m was not much right? But.. as you grow that 5% becomes more and more. Which is why the manual clearly states that once your airline gets very big, hire/fire/raise staff manually. Auto starts to work against you 2-3 years into the game.
Furthermore, for pay raises. You do know that your staff asks for a pay raise
Twice a year? Each time they ask for a raise, its between 3%-5%.. every 6months. Thats up to 10% a year increase. When left unchecked, this is why your staff costs explode. Your having to spread the higher costs on your aircraft. Further reducing your profit margin per aircraft.
If you havent figured it out, your overhead costs increase as you grow bigger and older.
Remember a few years back when when JetBlue started up? They were rapidly growing for the first 2-3 years.. yet.. by the 4th year, there growth wasnt as strong. People wondered why's that? Simple, those new aircraft, werent so new after 4-5 years.. those new employees at cheap wages werent so new after 4-5 years. Costs increase over time...
Same with AWS. Costs increase as your airline grows and gets old. Its
Your job to figure out the increases and work to solve them. The game is much, much deeper then "order aircraft" "set schedule" "rinse and repeat".
The game is a pretty close model to a
business simulation, as stated on the front page. It should be treated as such.. if you want to make claims of "best airline ect."
Dont be discouraged by not asking questions or for hints/help/advice. Most of the beta players are here to and have already helped (tried, at least) the newer player base.
Talentz
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 30, 2009, 10:35:37 PM
No, I personally don't like to argue...
I just dont want another protracted hardcore vs casual gamer war.
No one ever wins that one, and the truth is that I am on your side. They made so many MMOs only good for those who can afford to put in 100 hours per week. I don't play them. Goallineblitz is a great example of a game that both casual and hardcore can both play. It too is an online HTML-based game.
Listen, I have a full time job, a part time job 6 months of the year, a house, wife...... you get the picture. I have a life unlike a lot of people who play MMOs non-stop for hours on end. Personally, I'd hope Sami would focus his efforts elsewhere.
OK cool, but as someone who can relate I can't imagine why you'd object to the request. Agree to disagree I suppose.
That said, the game is awesome and that's pretty outstanding considering it is still in its infancy.
Quote from: Talentz on January 30, 2009, 10:37:56 PM
Dont be discouraged by not asking questions or for hints/help/advice. Most of the beta players are here to and have already helped (tried, at least) the newer player base.
Awesome info there Talentz!
SP/Edit: Reply 1 line, original message 50 lines ... pls strip the quote a bit shorter.
Quote from: Talentz on January 30, 2009, 10:37:56 PM
The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also after Sami made the days "random".
Have to make the crappy 'randomizer' a bit better I see ;D
Quote from: Talentz on January 30, 2009, 10:37:56 PM
I dont follow.. Of the 230+ some odd aircraft I have, over 150 aircraft I pulled from the used market. Of which all my 747s (60+) came from the used market as well.
You dont have to wait in line for new aircraft. Planes come on the used market every 3 hours. The days rotate every x amount of weeks. Each time x amount of weeks passes, the day increases by x amount of days. Not that hard to figure out.. This is also after Sami made the days "random". Before it was on x day always. ::)
Maintenance of older aircraft can kill you in the long term. Each aircraft has a bracket. 1~8//9~16//17~24 . Its best to replace aircraft after 8 years. But not always practical. Each of those brackets has a different % increase in maintenance. Think in terms of simplicity, (10%), (20%) (30%) (more then original 0.00 yr base cost maintenance). Keep that in mind with leasing aircraft. Know when to "cut and run" on them.
Well its kinda hard to know that stuff when youre new especially as I imagine that plane parts should become cheaper instead of more expensive as technology gets older?! Usually newer technology = higher costs ...
Also youre not the only one getting his airplanes from the used market... when i look at it i cannot find what im looking for most of the time (as i am limited to less than 8 yr old airbus now since I dont wanna looser another airline to exploding costs!) I dont know how bad the commonality extra costs would be if i just took whatever is there and has the right age ... i think commonality should be weighted heavier than plane age since when you have over 50 planes of the same type (DC10-30) even if they are old you would have a giant hall full with maintainance parts for those planes ...
Quote from: Athriaxo on January 31, 2009, 01:32:57 AM
Well its kinda hard to know that stuff when youre new especially as I imagine that plane parts should become cheaper instead of more expensive as technology gets older?! Usually newer technology = higher costs ...
Also youre not the only one getting his airplanes from the used market... when i look at it i cannot find what im looking for most of the time (as i am limited to less than 8 yr old airbus now since I dont wanna looser another airline to exploding costs!) I dont know how bad the commonality extra costs would be if i just took whatever is there and has the right age ... i think commonality should be weighted heavier than plane age since when you have over 50 planes of the same type (DC10-30) even if they are old you would have a giant hall full with maintainance parts for those planes ...
Commonality is perhaps the most weighted thing in costs, especially in the beggining and if you have a lot of a/cs. It obviously wont be if you have alot of the same planes.
For example, there was an airline in the very last beat ( I think), based in Oslo. He had something like 100 planes, all different. He didnt last more than a year after getting above like 50 different kinds of planes. :)
QuoteFor example, there was an airline in the very last beat ( I think), based in Oslo. He had something like 100 planes, all different. He didnt last more than a year after getting above like 50 different kinds of planes. :)
Mm your talking about Sundaypilot's airline. He solely tested the effects of fleet commonality with that airline. Was kinda funny he was bigger then most normal airlines.. :laugh:
I would consider him the top person to consult with on fleet common effects/costs ect. Well, besides Sami xD
~ Oh, sorry Sami. It took the better part of an off day last week to figure it out. Though, when the work weeks starts up again, I lose track of the days. It takes me a few (game) weeks to figure out the pattern on my next day off. :P
Talentz
Quote from: Talentz on January 31, 2009, 04:56:06 AM
Mm your talking about Sundaypilot's airline. He solely tested the effects of fleet commonality with that airline. Was kinda funny he was bigger then most normal airlines.. :laugh:
I would consider him the top person to consult with on fleet common effects/costs ect. Well, besides Sami xD
Yeah, Senior consultant on fleet commonality :P
It first seemed that fleet commonality doesn't have too big effect. But on long run it really plays a big role.
I first collected quite good cash before starting my "fleet experience program". It was easy grow rapidly, as I just ordered all available models. I was quickly the biggest by aircraft number, but then fleet expenses hitted me really hard. Had a bankcrupt in no time.
So I'd recommend: Keep your fleet as unified as possible ;D
Quote from: swiftus27 on January 30, 2009, 01:46:35 PM
I am glad you went with the "im bigger than you" defense. I also play in all 3 games right now and have about 70 planes across all of them and many more on order.
I am here to have fun and not let it turn into a second job.
If you want to complain a ton, then offer an alternative that makes good sense and wouldn't require an armada of programmers.
swiftus, i'm not here to complain, i'm trying to point out an important problem within the game. As the developers chose a real time strategy game, they should work on a prescheduling machine, as otherwise players that want to be serious with their airline are almost forced to be online all of the time.
Pike is right. I have approx 230 a/c right now and it is becoming simply impossible to work this out. The i'm bigger than you is not a defense it's an added argument. If you get to the point that you have 100+ a/c prescheduling is a complete necessity. Indeed, we all do not want to get so addicted to the game that we forget about real life. On the other hand however, everybody involved wants to run a succesful airline and wants to see that wise decisions lead to good PAX and good airline status. Right now, this is not anymore the case. Right now it is only a matter of how much time you have available to spend in front of your pc. I think that's a shame, because the game is very good and addictive otherwise and advance scheduling would really improve a lot.
Sami, what is your position on this, because you haven't spoken out on this topic. Is it in the pipeline or not?
No its not. I juggle things, and I have a busy life and I regularly have over 100-150 aircrafts. It never bothered me that I sometimes left planes sitting around for (rarely) up to a 4-6 months. If you can get them all in a one time, it wont matter much if you get them in later. :)
However, that feature would be nice... but I think there are more important issues for sami to do.... like tweaking some stuff and taking a rest.
I think we will see this feature eventually.
Quote from: Sundaypilot on January 31, 2009, 04:25:08 PM
Yeah, Senior consultant on fleet commonality :P
It first seemed that fleet commonality doesn't have too big effect. But on long run it really plays a big role.
I first collected quite good cash before starting my "fleet experience program". It was easy grow rapidly, as I just ordered all available models. I was quickly the biggest by aircraft number, but then fleet expenses hitted me really hard. Had a bankcrupt in no time.
So I'd recommend: Keep your fleet as unified as possible ;D
Haha beta 2... all I have to say
Quote from: Monk Xion on January 31, 2009, 11:17:21 PM
Haha beta 2... all I have to say
Yeah,
And I had Concorde and Tu-144 coming. Didn't get chance to fly them. Snif :'(
I would have been first to go supersonic in that game... ::)
Quote from: Sundaypilot on February 05, 2009, 11:22:04 PM
Yeah,
And I had Concorde and Tu-144 coming. Didn't get chance to fly them. Snif :'(
I would have been first to go supersonic in that game... ::)
I do appreciate you opening Oslo up tho