Heya!!
Important: Where is the Value of the a/c listed?! I just see the asking price, I need to know the value as well!!
Secondary: What happens if an aircraft I see on the used market is already sold/leased but I still see it? Does it cost me a call to learn that?!
#1: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34458.msg182044.html#new
#2: It's not shown. If the plane is on the list you had "called" but already sold, it's not displayed to you at all. A 'call' is only deducted when you actually press that 'call' button (or if last call was over 14 game days ago) ... remember that you can view/sort/browse/etc the list as much as you like and it's not counted as a call/reload until you actually press the button yourself (not even if you press F5...).
Quote from: Jona L. on September 28, 2011, 09:54:15 PM
Heya!!
Important: Where is the Value of the a/c listed?! I just see the asking price, I need to know the value as well!!
Completely agree. See my reply on the announcement thread:
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34456.msg182045.html#msg182045
I agree as well. Eliminating the value of the plane makes it way too easy to gouge the buyer. IT seems to me that a good purchasing department would be able to get me an estimated value on an investment as large as a commercial aircraft. I am also pretty sure an airline would not purchase an aircraft without knowing, or at least having a good idea of, the actual value of the aircraft.
Quote from: samiIn future a/c "value" will have two meanings; the bookkeeping value at the airline's accounting dept (=linear yearly deductions based on how much it originally costed), and the market value when sold (= dynamic, based on how much users are willing to pay for it). Currently used "value" is only an arbitrary calculated figure resembling the a/c initial price vs. age, and is not realistic so it will change over time.
(To help players spot a good/bad deal on the market a certain advisor style feature is also thought.)
I agree with the others who have mentioned it, the bookkeeping value should be shown on the plane's info page, along with the selling price. That provides roughly the same info as the yet to be implemented advisor feature, and I'd say it's pretty important to have that available.
2 other things: first is a minor pedant, the picture you put in the 1.3 thread shows 'costs on delivery' = 6,708,254. That amount isn't paid on delivery, it's paid on ordering. So it should say 'costs on placing order', or something similar. Otherwise it implies I can order the plane now, but only pay the 6.7 million for the c-check when it is delivered.
And a question, how will the 7 call limit work on week 1/day 1 of the game? The used market will still refresh 10+ times on day 1, because of the huge demand, yes? Do we get 7 calls per ~4 hours realtime, as we will the rest of the game? Or do we only get 7 calls for all of the 24 hour day 1, and the remainder of week 1, which will likely mean some players will simply miss out on getting their preferred plane type for at least the first game week.
*Sorry, put this in the announcement thread, rather than the general forum. So c&p-ing to here.*
I'm missing the old filters in the Used Marked box. Filters that told me in a glance the technical and capasity answers I was looking for! :-\
Quote from: alfkan on September 29, 2011, 08:02:52 AM
I'm missing the old filters in the Used Marked box. Filters that told me in a glance the technical and capasity answers I was looking for! :-\
He said they were disabled "temporarily" because he is thinking of some new stuff....
Quote from: JumboShrimp on September 28, 2011, 09:59:59 PM
Completely agree. See my reply on the announcement thread:
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34456.msg182045.html#msg182045
Sami linked that as well....
This is -frankly speaking- crap! Same as this stuff with the reduced number of deliveries!
Sami, you make this game a n00b game and let the good/long-term players dry out!! STOP THAT!!!Jona L.
A reduction to 3 per week is now suddenly the matter of life or death? Seriously, give me a break.
We will see how it works out in the following games and I know that it may be hard to mentally accept a new strategy instead of f5'ing all day long, but after all that was what "triggered" the need for changes.
Quote from: sami on September 29, 2011, 08:44:09 AM
A reduction to 3 per week is now suddenly the matter of life or death? Seriously, give me a break.
We will see how it works out in the following games and I know that it may be hard to mentally accept a new strategy instead of f5'ing all day long, but after all that was what "triggered" the need for changes.
I never said that I was against the 7-calls, that was not my point! Anti-F5-ing is always good!!
My point is a reduction of possible deliveries by 50%... this is just again a n00b protection system which cuts off players with large airlines (and thus with a need for many a/c)
Personally I think this is a good change and Sami has tried to deliver what most players were asking for in many other posts.
As a newbie with no aircraft knowledge... I will however miss the filter and search facility as I do not know what aircraft can carry 100-200 pax with a range of 4000Nm...looks like I will be making a lot of aircraft clicks to find the suitable planes now.
I agree with sami... let's see how it works out. Jona... if you have 400 planes and got 300 on order would it seriously made a difference if you get them a bit slower than you get now?
To be honest... those massive airline players are the ones who ruin the fun for me with their insanely aggresive expansions. So I think it's a good thing to protect the 'n00b' players.
Secondly, I do consider myself as an experienced player and the fact that I do NOT like a 500 plane airline does not make me a n00b player. I need my planes just as badly as a small regional airline than you with your massive airline. Just because you got 'disadvantaged' doesn't make the entire new feature useless.
I do agree that the value system should be watched carefully as I can see big airlines owning planes take advantage of it by selling the planes a lot more expensive than they are. And I too want the filters back in the Used a/c page :)
Quote from: Dasha on September 29, 2011, 10:30:25 AM
I agree with sami... let's see how it works out. Jona... if you have 400 planes and got 300 on order would it seriously made a difference if you get them a bit slower than you get now?
To be honest... those massive airline players are the ones who ruin the fun for me with their insanely aggresive expansions. So I think it's a good thing to protect the 'n00b' players.
Secondly, I do consider myself as an experienced player and the fact that I do NOT like a 500 plane airline does not make me a n00b player. I need my planes just as badly as a small regional airline than you with your massive airline. Just because you got 'disadvantaged' doesn't make the entire new feature useless.
I do agree that the value system should be watched carefully as I can see big airlines owning planes take advantage of it by selling the planes a lot more expensive than they are. And I too want the filters back in the Used a/c page :)
I think if Sami said the true value is for book-keeping, then implies me that there should be someone able to calculate it out (at least in RL). Why an airline won't hire someone to calculate for them before they buy the plane? I believe in RL there must be someone give advice to companies the approx. value of the planes. And I think in RL every company will take the "true" value into the account when buying an aircraft.
I Only get a 'Database Error' Message....
Quote from: vitongwangki on September 29, 2011, 10:42:38 AM
I think if Sami said the true value is for book-keeping, then implies me that there should be someone able to calculate it out (at least in RL). Why an airline won't hire someone to calculate for them before they buy the plane? I believe in RL there must be someone give advice to companies the approx. value of the planes. And I think in RL every company will take the "true" value into the account when buying an aircraft.
If we get advisors on planes the value of planes wouldn't be as important as it is now, I agree.
Quote from: Dasha on September 29, 2011, 11:25:28 AM
If we get advisors on planes the value of planes wouldn't be as important as it is now, I agree.
And I think the market value for small airlines because when they need to own the plane, the decision is very important to them.
Quote from: Wizard on September 29, 2011, 11:20:16 AM
I Only get a 'Database Error' Message....
Tried clearing your cache?
Quote from: vitongwangki on September 29, 2011, 11:28:04 AM
And I think the market value for small airlines because when they need to own the plane, the decision is very important to them.
That's what I mean. Either the value of the plane or some sort of advisor as they have in Airline Tycoon.
But..
let's see how things work out first.
I'm not sold on this yet. I worry that you could pick to make your 7 calls and each time you do there is nothing there so there is no chance to get anything at any other time. And the flipside some people could make 7 calls and hit every time.
The big test will be the start of JA5.
I don't find this off putting except only to those players who had a definitive advantage by being able to babysit their computer and constantly refresh the used market.
As said above, this has yet to be tested and will be tweaked if found to be inadequate.
Something had to be done to balance the sim a bit.
Quote from: swiftus27 on September 29, 2011, 12:32:40 PM
I don't find this off putting except only to those players who had a definitive advantage by being able to babysit their computer and constantly refresh the used market.
Agreed, it is better than the F5'ing. I'm just saying it may leave some people picking to call at the wrong time and going weeks without getting anything because they kept calling at the wrong time.
Quote from: Dave4468 on September 29, 2011, 12:36:40 PM
Agreed, it is better than the F5'ing. I'm just saying it may leave some people picking to call at the wrong time and going weeks without getting anything because they kept calling at the wrong time.
Well that's just the risk of it. In other words sometimes you get new planes, sometimes you don't. Same as the old system basically I think (where you had to access/reload the page). And of course it would make no sense to add an indication that 'X new planes available' as that would take away the whole idea of phone calls.
So despite all the doubts and moans..
Thank you Sami for keeping AWS up to date and interesting.
Quote from: Dave4468 on September 29, 2011, 12:36:40 PM
Agreed, it is better than the F5'ing. I'm just saying it may leave some people picking to call at the wrong time and going weeks without getting anything because they kept calling at the wrong time.
If all you're concerned with is the random chance that 7/7 of one's calls will find nothing new and 3/7 of another airline's will, I will take it.
The law of big numbers will eventually apply to all here.
Quote from: swiftus27 on September 29, 2011, 12:59:40 PM
If all you're concerned with is the random chance that 7/7 of one's calls will find nothing new and 3/7 of another airline's will, I will take it.
The law of big numbers will eventually apply to all here.
No, what I'm worried about is people getting nothing out of the 7 calls for weeks on end. Thats my issue.
Quote from: Dave4468 on September 29, 2011, 01:09:13 PM
No, what I'm worried about is people getting nothing out of the 7 calls for weeks on end. Thats my issue.
It will happen. It is like losing to the dealer in Blackjack 7 straight times. It just happens that way some times.
People were pressing F5 every minute or so using a third party program. How many phone calls is that? And I bet 1/200 were actually successful.
People do realize that the 7 phone call feature means that you can still refresh the market 7 times in about a four hour (real time) period on regular games -- that is more than many, perhaps most, players (who weren't glued to their computer 18 hours a day) could do in the old system. So can we just give this new feature a chance to be tested (from the actual beginning of a gameworld) before deciding its the end of the universe as we know it?
Quote from: minerva on September 29, 2011, 02:07:26 PM
People do realize that the 7 phone call feature means that you can still refresh the market 7 times in about a four hour (real time) period on regular games -- that is more than many, perhaps most, players (who weren't glued to their computer 18 hours a day) could do in the old system. So can we just give this new feature a chance to be tested (from the actual beginning of a gameworld) before deciding its the end of the universe as we know it?
a total complete +1 here
Quote from: swiftus27 on September 29, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
It will happen. It is like losing to the dealer in Blackjack 7 straight times. It just happens that way some times.
People were pressing F5 every minute or so using a third party program. How many phone calls is that? And I bet 1/200 were actually successful.
I suppose your right. Well as I and other have said lets see how it works when JA5 starts tomorrow.
Quote from: minerva on September 29, 2011, 02:07:26 PM
People do realize that the 7 phone call feature means that you can still refresh the market 7 times in about a four hour (real time) period on regular games -- that is more than many, perhaps most, players (who weren't glued to their computer 18 hours a day) could do in the old system. So can we just give this new feature a chance to be tested (from the actual beginning of a gameworld) before deciding its the end of the universe as we know it?
Yep. I like it, and the 3 plane per week limit.
I'm just concerned/curious about how it will work on the 24 hour day 1. Still 7 calls per 4 hours realtime, covering ~7-10 actual refreshes of the used market? Or only 7 calls for the first 28 hours realtime, covering 50+ refreshes of the used market?
I assume book value still exists for the purposes of things like loan security & c.v., so not being able to see it in the used market seems very strange, as well as unhelpful.
so for those of us that are not in a game right now could you please post pictures and explain a little more on how this works.
Because im reading it and im not picturing it very well.
Quote from: sami on September 29, 2011, 08:44:09 AM
A reduction to 3 per week is now suddenly the matter of life or death? Seriously, give me a break.
We will see how it works out in the following games and I know that it may be hard to mentally accept a new strategy instead of f5'ing all day long, but after all that was what "triggered" the need for changes.
I think he intentions were good, but sometimes things done with good intentions may have bad unintended consequences.
One of the great things about AWS (compared to other online games) is that one can log in once per day, and still be able to build a top airline. Under the old rules, this player was able to get 6 aircraft within 1 hour. Under the new rule, the same player would have to be online for 3 1/2 hours go get the same.
So while on one hand, the new feature does a great job limiting people hitting F5 all day, on the other hand, the extra change of 3 a/c limit a great advantage back to people who can be on Internet all day over once / day players.
I knew I should have put a $100,000.00 bet on at the bookies on who would complain about this new 7 call feature on the used market when it had been announced by SAMI......I'd of been very wealthy now! :laugh:
Quote from: Boiler Dweller on September 29, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
so for those of us that are not in a game right now could you please post pictures and explain a little more on how this works.
Because im reading it and im not picturing it very well.
The used market no longer refreshes own everyone's screen as planes are released to it.
In order for anyone to see what is on the market, one needs to refresh the list of available planes by 'calling the used market'
Quote from: ukatlantic on September 29, 2011, 05:07:13 PM
I knew I should have put a $100,000.00 bet on at the bookies on who would complain about this new 7 call feature on the used market when it had been announced by SAMI......I'd of been very wealthy now! :laugh:
I think you would now only have $100,010.00 as the odds on that one were not very healthy.
Yay filters are back!
Nice job Sami, think this was a good change in the long run.
Quote from: Gleipner on September 29, 2011, 05:58:29 PM
Yay filters are back!
Nice job Sami, think this was a good change in the long run.
Agree 100%. The only valid complaint I can see is the lack of a usable book value for the aircraft before the new analyst feature Sami has discussed is released. I very much like the direction this is headed and I think it will lead to more realism when the whole project is complete, but releasing it in parts and therefore not being able to have a rough idea of the value of a frame before you purchase/lease it until the project is complete is unacceptable, IMHO. The plain and simple truth is that this will be abused by just about anyone who has the ability to buy and resell planes to make a quick buck, most likely at the expense of a newer player that does not fully understand the depreciation rates of aircraft. So, you see an a321-200 that is 6 years old on the market for $91 million. Looks good, right? Never mind that a new build is $90 million and that 6 year old frame is now actually "worth" $72 million...
Just my 2 cents on the subject. again, in the end I feel this will be a major game enhancer and push operators to a more realistic fleet growth plan, but it really should either be released in its full final form or have a placeholder for the analyst until that function is released.
Don
Quote from: Sanabas on September 29, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
I'm just concerned/curious about how it will work on the 24 hour day 1
Not a problem, since the market is always full of good planes at the first day.
When you arrive there you use 1 call, and get immediately two planes, which is also your maximum for the day. Then you can just sit back and call the market again on game day 2 to get the third plane for the first week. And you have still 5 calls left which you can misuse if you are impatient...
Quote from: Boiler Dweller on September 29, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
so for those of us that are not in a game right now could you please post pictures and explain a little more on how this works.
Because im reading it and im not picturing it very well.
Not complicated at all, you figure it out when you see it. And I'm also typing a manual page for it just now.
Also, if you guys really really need it, I can (temporarily) add the calculated value visible for the purchase page. But as mentioned it will be removed later, so be mentally prepared.
Quote from: sami on September 29, 2011, 08:19:49 PM
Also, if you guys really really need it, I can (temporarily) add the calculated value visible for the purchase page. But as mentioned it will be removed later, so be mentally prepared.
That would be perfect. With the exception of the normal few complainers, the only real negative anyone has expressed is the current lack of a calculated aircraft value for comparison purposes. While the planned upgrade you have mentioned (the analyst) looks to be a better option, the value previously displayed is far better than nothing while we wait for the new feature to be added!
Don
Quote from: sami on September 29, 2011, 08:19:49 PM
Not a problem, since the market is always full of good planes at the first day.
When you arrive there you use 1 call, and get immediately two planes, which is also your maximum for the day. Then you can just sit back and call the market again on game day 2 to get the third plane for the first week. And you have still 5 calls left which you can misuse if you are impatient...
Admittedly, I haven't been in a gameworld on day 1 since MT4. But back then, there were new planes released onto the market at least 20 times on day 1, in order to give all those starting at various times a decent chance to get their choice of plane, and in order to not have 500 737s available for lease in hour 1 of day 1. As each group got released, the popular planes disappeared quickly, and players got to wait for the next release. Will that be significantly different this time? Will the used market get all the day 1 planes right from hour 1? That'd mean no need for the extra calls, no possibility of having to wait around for the next release. But it'll also mean a huge number of planes to wade through, and allow those who join earliest to have the widest choice in terms of getting the cheapest of a particular type, etc. I'm sure it will work out, I'm just curious.
QuoteAlso, if you guys really really need it, I can (temporarily) add the calculated value visible for the purchase page. But as mentioned it will be removed later, so be mentally prepared.
No worries for me if & when it changes to something else. As long as there's some way to know not only what I'm paying for a plane, but also what it's adding to my cv/how much loan it will secure, I'll be happy.
Quote from: sami on September 29, 2011, 08:19:49 PM
Also, if you guys really really need it, I can (temporarily) add the calculated value visible for the purchase page. But as mentioned it will be removed later, so be mentally prepared.
I know I am pushing it ;) but can you display this value on the aircraft detail page after the aircraft has been leased? Meaning on aircraft I am currently leasing. Or on a screen I would get when I click "Buy" on one of the aircraft I am currently leasing?
Buying from the used market or buying one of the aircraft currently leased is pretty much the same thing. The players would be interested to know how the price they are paying will reflect in their company value etc.
Does the call counter need to reach zero before it resets on Sundays? For 2 Sundays in a row my counter did not go back up and I'm now at zero with a single call made this week... >:(
Quote from: Chavaquiah on September 29, 2011, 09:53:23 PM
Does the call counter need to reach zero before it resets on Sundays? For 2 Sundays in a row my counter did not go back up and I'm now at zero with a single call made this week... >:(
In Europe, weeks end at midnight on Sunday. Wait a little to see if it resets...
Quote from: JumboShrimp on September 29, 2011, 10:11:42 PM
In Europe, weeks end at midnight on Sunday.
It's already late Tuesday...
Quote from: Chavaquiah on September 29, 2011, 10:15:57 PM
It's already late Tuesday...
Yup, mine just flipped from Sunday to Monday and it did not re-set. I think this may be the 2nd week it did not re-set for me as well...
Two weeks for no reset and now there are no Boeing 737's on the market any longer.
Hi sami,
I posted about this on this forum: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34456.20.html but thought I should repeat myself here as well.
There seems to be a problem with the resetting of the call counter: the counters of at least four players (including me; see other players' quotes below) have not been reset on Sunday. Could you look in to this, please? Thanks!
GJ
Quote from: Chavaquiah on September 29, 2011, 09:53:23 PM
Does the call counter need to reach zero before it resets on Sundays? For 2 Sundays in a row my counter did not go back up and I'm now at zero with a single call made this week... >:(
Quote from: JumboShrimp on September 29, 2011, 10:22:46 PM
Yup, mine just flipped from Sunday to Monday and it did not re-set. I think this may be the 2nd week it did not re-set for me as well...
Quote from: wtdawg on September 29, 2011, 11:08:34 PM
Two weeks for no reset and now there are no Boeing 737's on the market any longer.
Not 100% related to the topic but I think this message still qualifies. When buying a new or used aircraft configuration is confirmed. There is a graphic there which shows the relation between pax and range. I would be very very very happy if it was possible to "slide" the dot in the graphic and see for which range the plane carries how many pax. Describing a visual thing with words is a little tricky and English is not my primary language so I am sorry if I sound like I am talking nonsense.
Regards,
I like this 7 calls per week thing. Its going to be interesting how the gameworld will look a couple of years into the game.
I am (again) a little bit confused. Does the 3 ac/week rule exclude the first 2 (the ones with immediate delivery)? In JA#5 I leased 2 ac on Saturday and 2 more on Sunday.
Does the 3 per week counter reset at some point, rather than being continuous like it was in 1.2?
I leased 2 planes on Saturday, 1 plane on Sunday, and then didn't even look because I thought that was it. Looked at the used market on Monday, and it allowed me to lease 2 more planes. Will try to lease one on Tuesday as well, see what happens...
Quote from: Chavaquiah on October 01, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
I am (again) a little bit confused. Does the 3 ac/week rule exclude the first 2 (the ones with immediate delivery)? In JA#5 I leased 2 ac on Saturday and 2 more on Sunday.
I think the Sat/Sun change made it a new week as I did the same but my call counter had reset to 7 as it should at the start of each week. I would guess that tomorrow you and I will only be able to lease 1 more ac.
Quote from: psw231 on October 01, 2011, 08:16:34 PM
I think the Sat/Sun change made it a new week as I did the same but my call counter had reset to 7
Yes, that sounds about right. If I'm not mistaken, my 4th plane was ordered Sunday evening, when the counter had probably reset.
No planes for me on Tuesday, and my Sunday plane was ordered at around 0015. Either the first two didn't count for some reason, or the counter resets at Sat 2359/Sun 0000.
Quote from: Sanabas on October 01, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Does the 3 per week counter reset at some point, rather than being continuous like it was in 1.2?
It is the same as before.
Quote from: sami on October 01, 2011, 08:39:19 PM
It is the same as before.
Then there's a bug. I've ordered 5 used planes in the first 3 days of JA.
Actually when I looked it up, the first turn's two planes does not count. Sorry, bad memory... :P