AirwaySim

I think we should be able to borrow money from the bank to buy an airplane and then use the aircraft as a security.
Does anyone agree?

im pretty sure thats exactly what i did two weeks ago...  ???

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 12, 2011, 08:30:17 PM
I think we should be able to borrow money from the bank to buy an airplane and then use the aircraft as a security.
Does anyone agree?

Yeah you can do that over and over, you just have to be able to get enough money to buy the first aircraft.

Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft.

and the difference from now is what?

you are making weekly payment. you can use that aircraft as a security for your next loan, which if you default on they will take the aircraft...

He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place. It's not the same.  :P

As in the bank finances part of the cost of the aircraft. And then the player puts the remaining amount up himself.
Like getting a mortgage, the bank pays a percentage of the cost of the house and the buyer then pays the remaining percentage.

He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place. It's not the same.
exactly.

The problem with that is that, unlike real-life, a purchased plane in AWS is virtually guarnateed to make many, MANY times its purchase costs.  Unless you're doing something blatantly wrong you're going to make money hand over fist in this game.  So there's no virtually no risk to purchasing a plane.  If one could borrow money using the purchased plane as security, then anyone with an ounce of sense is going to immediately go and purchase as many planes as that 'feature' would allow them to because they can be certain they're going to easily pay off the loan.  Growth would be 50 times faster than it already is today and order queues at suppliers would be even longer.

Just beautiful, I really miss those asset backed securities from the times before the financial crisis hit...
:'(
Cheers,
Denis

Still i think we should be able to do this.

That's nice for you.

It's a fair idea, and yes it's done all the time in real life. But I think swiftus is right, there are some non-realistic factors in AWS which would basically make it a free money service.

yes but if you can only borrow money based on your credit rating up to a set amount it would work.

The game's still too easy and everything in this direction would it make even more easy.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
The game's still too easy and everything in this direction would it make even more easy.

This is a comment you seem to make an awful lot of the time and it really annoys me.

AWS is easy if you know how to make it easy, if you have been here for many years and know how to play this game, both properly and exploiting loopholes (not necessarily you but many big players I've seen do that) then yes it's easy, normally because players like you base at the big airports, know how to play them and squish everyone else who tries. Those of us who are not the AWS gods like you who end up at smaller airports stuck making no money with useless aircraft and having to see if stuff likes this works and if its possible. I like to think I'm not terrible at this and try to base and secondary airports and all I end up with is a measly profit per week while behemoths like you claim it is too easy.

Why don't players like you who like to claim how easy it is to become massive stop basing in London, Tokyo, Paris and Chicago and using all the short fat route and frequency tricks and play in some smaller airports and let some others base in the big airports.

I have to agree with Dave it is not that easy starting up in a small airport with all the big airlines hogging the slots in major airports. Give someone else a turn. >:(

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
This is a comment you seem to make an awful lot of the time and it really annoys me.

If requests stop to make this game even easier, I stop to annoy you with my opinion.

QuoteAWS is easy if you know how to make it easy,

That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail.

What makes people fail is their impatience and the absence of wisdom because they haven't read the manual and/or the FAQ and Guide.


I face this very often. In Alliance forums, in public forums and via PM people ask me for help.

Quoteif you have been here for many years and know how to play this game,

That's not true either. I know many people that haven't failed many times, some also had success since their first game because they prepared and read the forums and started low - including myself. So again I know what I'm talking about.

Quoteand exploiting loopholes (not necessarily you but many big players I've seen do that) then yes it's easy,

Yeah, all big players have this cool money cheat. But pssscht, don't tell anybody, it's a secret.

Seriously. That's something that faces every good player. We were called cheaters in Counter-Strike, we were called cheaters in World of Warcraft and now we are called cheaters in AirwaySim.
Unfortunately insulting other people doesn't improve the position of the failed, mostly because it's not the fault of good players some others fail.

Quotenormally because players like you base at the big airports,

Yeah. And why? Because AirwaySim is based on static demand. I'd love to base at Stuttgart or Kansas City or Tahiti. But as long as most routes have a demand of 3 pax/day I'm not going to waste my time with this.

Also basing at a big airport doesn't make things easier. Everybody flies into your base and many people go there to base by themselves.

Quoteknow how to play them and squish everyone else who tries.

That's insulting and simply wrong.

It's not easy to push players out of the game, especially at the beginning where every route is uncovered. I checked many airlines of the alliance I'm part in DotM#2 and I exactly know why people failed against very good players like Pai or DanDante.
It was no single time because those pushed them out. No. The players that competed with them made some very bad business desicions, throwing their airline away by themselves. And they know it, because they wrote it in their farewell.

That's by the way something you should learn, too. Look at your own actions instead of blaming the bad big guys all around there.

QuoteThose of us who are not the AWS gods like you who end up at smaller airports stuck making no money with useless aircraft and having to see if stuff likes this works and if its possible.

You making a fool out of yourself if you really believe this. Why exactly "AWS gods" (whatever this is) are responsible for other people's actions?

I'll tell you something. In Tokyo Haneda, my current base, we were six airlines at first. Now all others are gone. Why? Because I pushed them out? No.

Even this would be ok in my opinion because we all started at the same moment, I will tell you why exactly they failed:
Two of them used 747-200 domestic, getting crushed when these two guys out of Fukuoka start to fill up the route.
One player used very old and small aircraft, maybe tried to hog slots, and the costs for the slots made him poor. The C-Check season lead him to the decision to give up.
The next one used 727-100 mainly, not a very efficient aircraft, and some day he just left. I don't know why, haven't competed with him.

And yesterday the last guy left. He flew with his 11 aircraft to over 25 destinations but still managed it somehow to make profit. He used this profit to add two more fleet categories to his existing four, one of them A300 he send on a big route where my MD-81 and B732Adv are on. No wonder he failed but he wasn't BKd, he just gave up.

So is it now my fault people choose wrong aircraft? Is it my fault they do stupid schedules while in every fourth thread in this forums stands "stick to less routes as possible"? Is it my fault people just leave the game?

QuoteI like to think I'm not terrible at this and try to base and secondary airports and all I end up with is a measly profit per week while behemoths like you claim it is too easy.

You base at small airports and wonder why some people run big and successful airlines and you're not? Is this really a question one must answer to you?

And yes, it is too easy. I have justified why.

QuoteWhy don't players like you who like to claim how easy it is to become massive stop basing in London, Tokyo, Paris and Chicago and using all the short fat route and frequency tricks and play in some smaller airports and let some others base in the big airports.

Because I pay credits to have fun. And my fun is to create good and at least half-way big airlines. This isn't possible out of Unalaska due to static demand system.

And, honestly. People aren't just successful because they base at a big airport. No skill is no skill, even the base changed from Glasgow or Cologne to Heathrow or Tokyo.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
I have to agree with Dave it is not that easy starting up in a small airport with all the big airlines hogging the slots in major airports. Give someone else a turn. >:(

Why? In my first game (Euro Challenge) I was massevily under attack by two others basing out of Palma de Mallorca and two very good players, SAC and Nonkan, (tried to) use(d) my airport as ABCBA hub. And I still managed to survive and made it very well till the end of the game.

Your attitude is why Valve made Counter-Strike (Source) easy, Blizzard made the WoW raids and heroic instances easy etc. Nobody is willing to invest some time and brain. Everybody is in need of the big fat success without doing anything.

But let me say - people with this attitude would also fail even sami gave them hundred A330-300 at the game world start and exclusive slots. They are always digging their own graves.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
This is a comment you seem to make an awful lot of the time and it really annoys me.

AWS is easy if you know how to make it easy, if you have been here for many years and know how to play this game, both properly and exploiting loopholes (not necessarily you but many big players I've seen do that) then yes it's easy, normally because players like you base at the big airports, know how to play them and squish everyone else who tries. Those of us who are not the AWS gods like you who end up at smaller airports stuck making no money with useless aircraft and having to see if stuff likes this works and if its possible. I like to think I'm not terrible at this and try to base and secondary airports and all I end up with is a measly profit per week while behemoths like you claim it is too easy.

Why don't players like you who like to claim how easy it is to become massive stop basing in London, Tokyo, Paris and Chicago and using all the short fat route and frequency tricks and play in some smaller airports and let some others base in the big airports.

Well, I am annoyed by people like you flying anything under B747/777 class aircraft into LHR, hogging the slots. I in fact go to the big Airports becuase I want to have something to do, and not be finished with looking into my airline for 2 minutes. Yes, you guys have no chance at the big airports, but hell, don't complain, change something: Go practice!! I have started off in DUS, DEL, and several other places the first 3 months of me playing this game, just to learn the freaking basics. Then I went to LHR, and ever since I do well there. So you should learn the basics and get some kind of know-how, and then try again at the big airports.
Don't blame others for your fail, find your errors!

I know I might sound arrogant or holding one of my "big-boys speeches" but I don't intend to give you people sh*t. My point (at least this time) is, that even we big guys [except Curse] have had to play some not so great times till we got so big. Excepting Curse because he was top-10 straight out.
For all of us practice is the way to go.

That as my 2 cents to this.

Jona L.

Quote from: Jona L. on June 13, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
I know I might sound arrogant ...

Honestly I hate this behaviour. Why it's a must to disclaim if one is good or better than others in such a specific category?

Yeah, we now could do all friendly and tell things like "Don't be sad, guys, everybody is able to be successful" but that's not true. Some people failed every time in the past and will fail every time in the future. They might have other category groups where they are successful in a similar way and are also allowed to be arrogant.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail.

What makes people fail is their impatience and the absence of wisdom because they haven't read the manual and/or the FAQ and Guide.

No it isn't. I currently have an airline with two fleet groups, I don't open a new route till I have filled the ones I have open. I try to do what we are always told by people like your good self will make us succeed. I make only just $300,000 p/w. I'm based in Bristol, it's not a small airport. It's not possible to make a decent airline there. My only option is to open a second base, which according to you will be "easy", it'll B/K me.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
Yeah, all big players have this cool money cheat. But pssscht, don't tell anybody, it's a secret.

But you do. You base in the big airports, exploit the fact that fleet commonality means nothing, buy a heap of cheap planes, quickly fill the big fat routes like LHR - CDG/AMS/FRA, make a pile of money, order a ton more planes off the used market and start to fill order ques. That means by the time everyone else can afford the next 737, A320, DC10 or MD82 they've already all gone.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
That's insulting and simply wrong.

It's not easy to push players out of the game, especially at the beginning where every route is uncovered.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
That's by the way something you should learn, too. Look at your own actions instead of blaming the bad big guys all around there.

Ok then, you know how to make a super airline from anywhere. Tell me what I should do at Bristol, not a small airport, how do I make more money there?

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
You making a fool out of yourself if you really believe this. Why exactly "AWS gods" (whatever this is) are responsible for other people's actions?

I'm not saying you're responsible for others actions, I'm saying that players like you make in damn near impossible to start a big airline from a big airport because someone like you will be there and will be immediately dominant.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
You base at small airports and wonder why some people run big and successful airlines and you're not? Is this really a question one must answer to you?

And yes, it is too easy. I have justified why.

I base at small airports because I know that while I may end up with a small airline I will end up with an airline. I'd love to spend a game playing from Heathrow but I know a big player will base there and it will be a waste of my time and money. (Not an attack on Jona, same for any big airport)

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
Because I pay credits to have fun. And my fun is to create good and at least half-way big airlines. This isn't possible out of Unalaska due to static demand system.

I pay credits to have fun, everyone on AWS pays credits to have fun. I just know I can't have the fun I wan't because someone like you will crush me.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
And, honestly. People aren't just successful because they base at a big airport. No skill is no skill, even the base changed from Glasgow or Cologne to Heathrow or Tokyo.

Put your money where your mouth is. Next game base at some provincial airport like Bristol, or somewhere without the short haul high demand routes like Cape Town, prove that your skill will overcome everything else.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
Your attitude is why Valve made Counter-Strike (Source) easy, Blizzard made the WoW raids and heroic instances easy etc. Nobody is willing to invest some time and brain. Everybody is in need of the big fat success without doing anything.

But let me say - people with this attitude would also fail even sami gave them hundred A330-300 at the game world start and exclusive slots. They are always digging their own grave.

I don't care that you are better than me, there is always someone better than me. I care about the fact I pay the same amount of money as you but can't actually do what I want. I have only had one properly successful airline, once from Jo'burg when I didn't have a big player, FYI in the current MT I tried it again using the same tactic that was successful last time and was greeted by a big player who, guess what, squished me. I've run numerous airlines that just worked and made some money but not enough to make it fun.

And Jona, you say I need to learn the basics and practice. How do you suggest I do it? There is no practice world (hint hint) and if I practice in a "live" I will end up wasting my money.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
No it isn't. I currently have an airline with two fleet groups, I don't open a new route till I have filled the ones I have open. I try to do what we are always told by people like your good self will make us succeed. I make only just $300,000 p/w. I'm based in Bristol, it's not a small airport. It's not possible to make a decent airline there. My only option is to open a second base, which according to you will be "easy", it'll B/K me.

Bristol isn't a small airport but also not a big one. If you make not enough money there, this could have many causes. I don't know your airline in detail and I don't think you will have me a look at, so the only thing I can say is: choose a bigger airport if you think Bristol limits your profit.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
But you do. You base in the big airports, exploit the fact that fleet commonality means nothing, buy a heap of cheap planes, quickly fill the big fat routes like LHR - CDG/AMS/FRA, make a pile of money, order a ton more planes off the used market and start to fill order ques.

You're a liar. It seems you have absolutely no clue about my game play and my strategies.

I take care of my fleet categories and tell people to take care on this gameplay aspect too! And I never fill the "big fat" long-haul routes first! My strategy is ALWAYS based on short-haul! And I never buy out cheap crappy aircraft, I'm no follower of this secured loan strategy and I never have used it!

Maybe you should do a bit of research before you try to blame others. This wouldn't make you look like a damn liar as at the moment.

QuoteThat means by the time everyone else can afford the next 737, A320, DC10 or MD82 they've already all gone.

That's simply not true, too. I'm not able to monitor the used market 24/7 and the limit of 2 aircraft/day and 6/week would also kick in.

QuoteOk then, you know how to make a super airline from anywhere. Tell me what I should do at Bristol, not a small airport, how do I make more money there?

After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

QuoteI'm not saying you're responsible for others actions, I'm saying that players like you make in damn near impossible to start a big airline from a big airport because someone like you will be there and will be immediately dominant.

Ok. Next time I bankrupt myself because you opened my eyes. The real goal in AirwaySim is not that I have fun, it's to sacrifice myself and my skill to allow it everybody else to have fun. Silly me.


Oh, wait. What really happens if there is no "good" airline you can see at London Heathrow in the current DotM. A bunch of airlines, one worser than the other, tries not to fail like about 20 airlines that tried in the same game world there before.
But for sure this is also the work of us "big guys". At night we meet and sing some dark witch songs to make people fail even at airports no one of "us" is based. But that's also a secret, don't tell anyone.

QuoteI base at small airports because I know that while I may end up with a small airline I will end up with an airline. I'd love to spend a game playing from Heathrow but I know a big player will base there and it will be a waste of my time and money. (Not an attack on Jona, same for any big airport)

So what you are exactly complaining about?

Why don't you try basing out of Heathrow? Maybe you won't have the biggest airline there, but hell, if you stick only to the half of tricks and things that are necessary to build a successful airline you should be able to survive till the end.

QuoteI pay credits to have fun, everyone on AWS pays credits to have fun. I just know I can't have the fun I wan't because someone like you will crush me.

Normally I would laugh loud, because I never crush smaller airlines with unexperienced players and instead trying to help them. And all big players I know handle this the same way.

Unfortunately I will rethink this after your offenses in this thread.

QuotePut your money where your mouth is. Next game base at some provincial airport like Bristol, or somewhere without the short haul high demand routes like Cape Town, prove that your skill will overcome everything else.

And then you're whining about this cruel Curse that based in your nice little airport and made your airline look worse. As I said - skill and success are mainly not addicted to airport size.

But don't worry. My airport for the next game world is already choosen and I have a strategy for it. Maybe another argument why I'm successful and others not - I think about my future actions, write it down and eliminate errors before they can happen in the game.

QuoteI don't care that you are better than me,

Was this before you started to offend me? Or is it just something that happens in your own little world?

QuoteI care about the fact I pay the same amount of money as you but can't actually do what I want.

You pay money for the possibility to play. It's new to me sami guarantees everybody to be successful.

QuoteFYI in the current MT I tried it again using the same tactic that was successful last time and was greeted by a big player who, guess what, squished me.

Which airport you were based at and which airline was this?

QuoteAnd Jona, you say I need to learn the basics and practice. How do you suggest I do it? There is no practice world (hint hint) and if I practice in a "live" I will end up wasting my money.

If you can't afford the cent a day, why don't you just look out the windows? As far as I know it's at no charge and hardly some big guy will come and is better in the "looking out the window thing".

Otherwise just learn. I haven't got a single PM from your side about help. Even I wrote in many of your threads and as you pointed out you know I'm a successful big guy. Why just haven't you asked? Like all the other people that ask me or others and get help?

Is this also too difficult for you?

Quote: Because I pay credits to have fun. And my fun is to create good and at least half-way big airlines. This isn't possible out of Unalaska due to static demand system.

I also pay credits to have fun and I cannot do this from airports such as Unalaska which are the only airports left after people like you base at the big airports. It does not matter if others who based at tokyo failed and you didn't the fact is that it is not possible to make as much profits at smaller airports that are left. The other five you mentioned probably failed due to overexpansion and then lack of slots from big airlines like yours.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 05:56:03 PM
Honestly I hate this behaviour. Why it's a must to disclaim if one is good or better than others in such a specific category?

Doesn't seem like you feel this during our skype chats ;)

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
You're a liar. It seems you have absolutely no clue about my game play and my strategies.
...
Maybe you should do a bit of research before you try to blame others. This wouldn't make you look like a damn liar as at the moment.
...
After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

Cool it down; (not going to say this again).

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
I also pay credits to have fun and I cannot do this from airports such as Unalaska which are the only airports left after people like you base at the big airports. It does not matter if others who based at tokyo failed and you didn't

Oho. So many big guys out there? Funny thing I just could name up to 10, while there are about 100-200 airports offering demand for an airline with more than 100 aircraft and all Top40 airports or so offer enough demand for two or three big airlines.

But nice to see what weird things you imagine just to clarify out how bad the big guys are. It's the same thing as damning all the politicans and managers for every bad thing that happens.


And yes, it matters if others failes. It shows people that have no idea about things why others failed to disable their weak arguments.

Quotethe fact is that it is not possible to make as much profits at smaller airports that are left. The other five you mentioned probably failed due to overexpansion and then lack of slots from big airlines like yours.

Yeah? And? Everybody had the same chances at game world start and even at this moment there are some very nice airports ready to build up a big airline or just to compete with weaker big airlines.

But it's normal an airport like Atlanta or Heathrow offers you more profit than Manchester or Munich.

And no, I haven't catched all the slots. They BKd because of their failures. Please stop developing scenarios in your mind and stick to the facts. In this case they failed on their own. Without my help or the help of others. End of story.

Quote from: sami on June 13, 2011, 07:11:59 PM

Cool it down; (not going to say this again).

Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

Quote from: BobTheCactus on June 13, 2011, 07:45:38 PM
Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

Exactly!

Quote from: BobTheCactus on June 13, 2011, 07:45:38 PM
Sami, while I appreciate all your work and respect you as the grand fromage and all of that, I'm going to say that you are calling out the wrong person this time.

I don't think that Curse is saying anything particularly worse than any of the other posters on this thread. He is offering his candid view, perhaps too directly, but all the same, and he is saying it passionately, because he clearly cares a lot about AWS. Anything he said which could be percieved as insulting was said with direct evidence backing up what he said as well.

The other poster isn't going out of his way to inform himself, and he is being rather impatient. Perhaps if he were to spend some time, use the (excellent) FAQs and manual on the site, and put in a little time and effort, he too could be a great AWS player.  But I think that Curse is justified to say all that he has so far.

My humble opinion,
BobTheCactus

+1

Funny what one small comment can kick off  :-[

Quote from curse at 07:12:50 PM
"And yes, it matters if others failes. It shows people that have no idea about things why others failed to disable their weak arguments."

Others failed because they cannot compete with the big airlines, and people like you cannot understand what it is like to fail because they had instant sucess because they never based at a small airport. You are missing the point!!!

Curse you tell us to base at big airports and there is still room to base here. You also said quote "That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail"   
"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 08:57:18 PM
Curse you tell us to base at big airports and there is still room to base here. You also said quote "That's not true. If one reads the manual carefully, the FAQ and Guide that can be found here in this forum and maybe some other threads around, it's no big deal to be successful - or at least not to fail"   
"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

Those guides are for newbs though, maybe it's not advisable for your first game world and then when you consider yourself a "big boy" you can then move onto them once you've mastered the basics.

(Or maybe it's Curse's conspiracy to keep players from the top bases so he has them to himself  :o )

I was based at Palma de Mallorca in my first game and in Beginners World at Moscow Domodedowo for some time and I had many closer looks at airlines of friends of mine based out of small airports - Belfast and Jersey, Stuttgart and Tel Aviv.

And what exactly makes you think I'm not able to understand how it is to fly out of small bases? Mainly because I know how it feels like I don't base there.
That's basically the same thing with fire. I know what fire is, but I don't burn myself  - although I really enjoy the idea that is behind fire and heat, especially when it's winter time.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 08:57:18 PM
"the manual says Careful to avoid crowded airports" go to WWW.airwaysim.com/game and read the bold writing.

I said:
"and even at this moment there are some very nice airports ready to build up a big airline or just to compete with weaker big airlines."

Please explain to me how this (and the other statement of myself you quoted) collides with the game description, that's the thing you actually quoted. By the way, the manual can be found here: https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual

Quote from: alexgv1 on June 13, 2011, 09:00:56 PM
(Or maybe it's Curse's conspiracy to keep players from the top bases so he has them to himself  :o )

Yeah, that's the secret strategy behind all of this. There is no DanDante, there is no Quinoky, there is no Jona L. and nobody else you ever see in the Top10. That's all me with my multi-accounts I use to prepare myself for world domination! Muahahaha! 

;D

No, seriously. I try to help as good and as often I can because I prefer competition and everybody has fun. That's why I wrote the FAQ and give away my spreadsheets and guides via alliance forums and PM.
But I will and can not accept some offenses, especially when people try to tell stories that are opposite to what I actually do and think. And also that is what makes me really sad and angry.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
I take care of my fleet categories and tell people to take care on this gameplay aspect too! And I never fill the "big fat" long-haul routes first! My strategy is ALWAYS based on short-haul! And I never buy out cheap crappy aircraft, I'm no follower of this secured loan strategy and I never have used it!

Thats not what I said, I said about the filling out of the fat short haul routes, LHR to Paris, or any of the others I said. Which is exactly what you just admitted to.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
That's simply not true, too. I'm not able to monitor the used market 24/7 and the limit of 2 aircraft/day and 6/week would also kick in.

I'm not saying you pick off everything aggressively, I'm saying that the players who base over and over in the big airports will always be able to pick all the good stuff off the used market by using the same tactic long before a lot of others can. It's true, that cannot be denied.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
After you insult me and telling lies about me and my airline you beg for my help? Are you serious?

Sarcasm my good man.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PMOk. Next time I bankrupt myself because you opened my eyes. The real goal in AirwaySim is not that I have fun, it's to sacrifice myself and my skill to allow it everybody else to have fun. Silly me.

Again, not what I said, I am simply saying that the same big players base in the same places over and over thus limiting alot of other people.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PMSo what you are exactly complaining about?

Why don't you try basing out of Heathrow? Maybe you won't have the biggest airline there, but hell, if you stick only to the half of tricks and things that are necessary to build a successful airline you should be able to survive till the end.

Because I have tried it before, not at LHR but still a big demand airport and you wouldn't believe what happened...

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
Was this before you started to offend me? Or is it just something that happens in your own little world?

No, I don't care.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
You pay money for the possibility to play. It's new to me sami guarantees everybody to be successful.

I didn't say that, it just seems odd that is fine for some players to spend their money and have fun but not for others.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
Which airport you were based at and which airline was this?

Johannesburg, Karoo Air.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
If you can't afford the cent a day, why don't you just look out the windows? As far as I know it's at no charge and hardly some big guy will come and is better in the "looking out the window thing".

I don't have the money to waste stuff all the time testing things.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
Otherwise just learn. I haven't got a single PM from your side about help. Even I wrote in many of your threads and as you pointed out you know I'm a successful big guy. Why just haven't you asked? Like all the other people that ask me or others and get help?

Just never have, maybe that makes me a horrible person.

And for what its worth this is not meant to be an attack on you Curse or anyone else, it is just that there is a point where it becomes a grind not being able to do anything because the chances of running a big airline are not possible. I have, not, until now being accused of a liar and everything else, been out to attack anyone, but it would seem for having the bare faced tenacity to call bull on something that seems remarkably unfair to me and ended up in an argument with Curse has meant I have accrued the hate of most people on here.

I've not been impatient with this game, I have been playing for about a year and a half, have been in several different game worlds, run several different types of airline, read the manual, read the FAQs. I probably put too much time into this game.

Maybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy and there is a status quo that is going to stay.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 09:03:35 PM

Maybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy

Aha. So after all of this arguing, you come out and say that you AGREE with Curse.

This whole discussion was about the fact that implementing this idea would make the game easier, and therefore it was a bad idea. Then ABC said that the game needs to be easier because it is too hard, and Curse called the BS on that.

I completely agree, the game needs to become harder. But Sami doesn't have all the time in the world to spend on AWS :/

Quote from: BobTheCactus on June 13, 2011, 09:19:12 PM
Aha. So after all of this arguing, you come out and say that you AGREE with Curse.

This whole discussion was about the fact that implementing this idea would make the game easier, and therefore it was a bad idea. Then ABC said that the game needs to be easier because it is too hard, and Curse called the BS on that.

I completely agree, the game needs to become harder. But Sami doesn't have all the time in the world to spend on AWS :/

Again, sarcasm. As I originally this game is easy if you know the tricks to make it easy, I DO NOT think it is easy. 

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 09:20:56 PM
Again, sarcasm. As I originally this game is easy if you know the tricks to make it easy, I DO NOT think it is easy. 

That is dissappointing. I have always felt that AWS needed to get quite a bit harder

This DOTM#2 is a lot harder than DOTM#1 due to quicker surge in fuel prices, early spike, high average fuel and high interest rates. However I am also of the opinion that it became too easy because the fuel went down too soon to really punish people for their mistakes. Maybe that is a cruel view but I like to be rewarded for doing good business.

I think it is easier in these big bases so my advice, Dave, is to maybe try a bigger base many of the top 50 are unoccupied by the 10 or so "AWS gods" (they cannot be in all at once) and you might find that you make life easy for yourself rather than running a small airline (which you can see from the Fairchild and CRJ threads at the extreme end of the spectrum don't work). Or otherwise wait for the game developers to make small airlines easier to play by changing things for commuter airlines, or implementing city based demands.

I can kind of empathise with your frustration Dave as I didn't always run with the "big boys", I too never wanted mega airlines, but to satisfy a scenario in my head and stay under the radar of these players in the biggest airports. But there is an age old saying which we are all familiar with:

"If you can't beat them; join them"        ;)

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 09:03:35 PM
Thats not what I said, I said about the filling out of the fat short haul routes, LHR to Paris, or any of the others I said. Which is exactly what you just admitted to.

Come on, seriously.

I never ever based in Europe/EU except Palma de Mallorca in my first game world.

Also out of Paris or London it's a not very smart strategy to cover these routes first. If you start there, it's much more smart to choose a long-haul widebody like DC-10 or A330 and fly daily to New York, Toronto, etc.


What I admitted was the following thing, I take Tokyo Haneda, my current HQ, as example:
While Fukuoka and Sapparo are the most biggest routes, my first aircraft flew to Nagoya and Toyama.


It's also not the smartest move to fly to cities where (many) competition is based, so Heathrow - Charles de Gaulle would have no priority if I would base at one of those airports.

QuoteIt's true, that cannot be denied.

Why? A friend of mine started out of Zurich and build up a very big fleet very fast. Another friend grabbed more B727 from the used market than I did and his base, Taipei, is not even a Top30 airport.

Also most "big guys" are not interested in the BAC 1-11 or the EMB-110 you use at the moment.

QuoteAgain, not what I said, I am simply saying that the same big players base in the same places over and over thus limiting alot of other people.

Why limiting them? Please explain this one in detail.

QuoteBecause I have tried it before, not at LHR but still a big demand airport and you wouldn't believe what happened...

Please tell me what happened in detail.

QuoteI didn't say that, it just seems odd that is fine for some players to spend their money and have fun but not for others.

Are you good at math? I spent 13 years in school and I'm not good at math. How will you excuse yourself in this? It's odd you haven't excused yourself since now for being better in math than I am.

QuoteJohannesburg, Karoo Air.

This airline doesn't exist anymore in DotM. But the current one at Johannesburg doesn't seem this well, too, so it's possible to base their and get advantage of him within some years. Why don't you try it?

QuoteI don't have the money to waste stuff all the time testing things.

Thats why I spend a lot of time while being in Demo gameworld and in Beginners Game.

I read nearly every thread in the general forums, many threads in the gameworld specific forums and I searched for players like Sigma and Talentz and read all their posts they ever made at AirwaySim. I also contacted Sigma and asked him some things that were suspicious to me.

I also started to note down things - before game worlds and while I play them. For example this is something out of my notes about Early Days, my first game world after I left AWS for some month:
- starting with C-46, alternatively DC-3
- order DC-4 and DC-6, but DC-6 has priority
- try to order new aircraft as late as possible. queue is growing fast and having a fleet type with 2-3 aircraft for some month is not good

I put much time and effort into AWS and success is the payment for it. I make screenshots of every quartal's finances to compare them in a new game world and I write twice a year a very detailed status report about my airline and I always reflect what I've done wrong or could have been done better.

It's not like sitting on the PC for 5 minutes, clicking a bit around and voila, three times the airline value the airline on the second place has.


I already started to plan my actions in the new game world - gathering routes, different aircraft for different strategies for different competitors.


And now you blame me I might be more successful than somebody who joins randomly an airport, got some aircraft from the market and thinks about what to do with it?

QuoteAnd for what its worth this is not meant to be an attack on you Curse or anyone else, it is just that there is a point where it becomes a grind not being able to do anything because the chances of running a big airline are not possible.

Why? Why in detail this isn't possible? Take a look at diskoerekto out of Zurich in DotM #2. Zurich is a small airport and this is his first game world. And he is doing well. I told some people I know it will not last many game worlds and he is one of the most biggest guys here.

So if this is possible for this complete Newbie. Why not for you?

QuoteI have, not, until now being accused of a liar and everything else, been out to attack anyone, but it would seem for having the bare faced tenacity to call bull on something that seems remarkably unfair to me and ended up in an argument with Curse has meant I have accrued the hate of most people on here.

I have said what I said and I justified it more than good enough in my eyes. If this word is a very big offense and insults also your family, your pet and your home town, this wasn't my intention. It's just the word my dictionaries tell me for somebody not telling the truth with intent or due to lack of information.


And don't care about the other people. You said things about me and my airline that I don't like on other airlines, too. I'm fully against the strategy to buy out scrap aircraft and use them for a secured loan. I'm totally against flying everything that has wings and I'm really upset at this moment that it seems to work again for some special player out of EGLL at the moment.

I didn't get everything in your sentence because I'm not good enough in English (maybe another thing that you should excuse to me - because you are much better in English than I am and it's not fair :D) but hopefully got everything that's important.

QuoteMaybe I should just accept that this game is clearly far too easy and there is a status quo that is going to stay.

Maybe.

Or just stop whining and giving up yourself and join a bigger airport in the US (easy and good for practice) like La Guardia or Ft. Lauderdale or Kansas City if you really feel not able to choose one of the bigger ones like Manchester, Seattle or Barcelona.

There are many people out here that always help if someone asks politely. DanDantes, BobtheCactus, Sigma, Daveos - just to name some. Please understand I'm not on this list for you anymore.

Have you actually nothing better to do than just keep putting up posts about how easy the game is and how my original idea would make the game too easy and how wrong our opinions are. They are just opinions. Your problem is you have your head too far up your own ar*e you cannot listen to reasoning.

You know what you all suck!  But I love you all still :)

Some of you guys can't even make it work at big airports (Jona L. For example just BK'd in DOTM 2)

Its not impossible to make it at smaller airports, just look at my current airline FlyEurope based in Belfast then opened a base in Glasgow (DOTM 2).

New players just have to be patient and I promise you'll make it an airport with 45% or above, anything below and it'll be difficult.

The successful players in this game/simulation are the ones that set themselves a task and accomplish it, not the people that are at the top spot.  Because let me tell you just because an airline is #1 doesn't mean the CEO is...

Now stop bickering on this and get back to running your airline, and BE NICE!

Love,
J. Oates 8)

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 09:59:21 PM
Have you actually nothing better to do than just keep putting up posts about how easy the game is and how my original idea would make the game too easy and how wrong our opinions are. They are just opinions. Your problem is you have your head too far up your own ar*e you cannot listen to reasoning.

Your opening post doesn't include a single argument. Sigmas's professional and smart answer with arguments was finished with a "I still think.." by your side.

Maybe you should start to give reasons about your idea? At the moment there's still nothing one can discuss.

Quote from: J. Oates on June 13, 2011, 10:02:02 PM
(Jona L. For example just BK'd in DOTM 2)

His airline was doing very well and I asked him to do so (our initial plan to control Japan with two players failed). It's not his fault, so please exclude him from this.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 10:06:25 PM


His airline was doing very well and I asked him to do so. It's not his fault, so please exclude him from this.

Damn bro if you can just ask people to BK and they do it, I think you've pretty much mastered Airwaysim :p

Apologies :)

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Come on, seriously.

I never ever based in Europe/EU except Palma de Mallorca in my first game world.

Europe isn't the point, the point is the high demand short haul flights.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Also most "big guys" are not interested in the BAC 1-11 or the EMB-110 you use at the moment.

Well, they were almost all bought new.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Why limiting them? Please explain this one in detail.

Because a large player such as your good self will appear at a big airport and dominate it.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Please tell me what happened in detail.

I had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Are you good at math? I spent 13 years in school and I'm not good at math. How will you excuse yourself in this? It's odd you haven't excused yourself since now for being better in math than I am.

Not quite sure how this is related to anything.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
This airline doesn't exist anymore in DotM. But the current one at Johannesburg doesn't seem this well, too, so it's possible to base their and get advantage of him within some years. Why don't you try it?

No, that was my airline that suffered to the big player above. MT3.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Thats why I spend a lot of time while being in Demo gameworld and in Beginners Game.

How?

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
I also started to note down things - before game worlds and while I play them. For example this is something out of my notes about Early Days, my first game world after I left AWS for some month:
- starting with C-46, alternatively DC-3
- order DC-4 and DC-6, but DC-6 has priority
- try to order new aircraft as late as possible. queue is growing fast and having a fleet type with 2-3 aircraft for some month is not good

I do the exact same. My Karoo Air example above;

- Use B763ERs to start. Save money and buy, when they become available, B772/3 and more B763ER used.
- Once I've got some money one by one orders of B773s and B764 and replace.  (worked up until here in the last MT)
- Keep ordering B77W and B764s, when they become available A380 for slot restricted high demand routes, such as LHR.

Didn't work because the big player got me halfway through the second point.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
And now you blame me I might be more successful than somebody who joins randomly an airport, got some aircraft from the market and thinks about what to do with it?

I suspect you may be in the minority to that degree of micromanagement.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
I have said what I said and I justified it more than good enough in my eyes. If this word is a very big offense and insults also your family, your pet and your home town, this wasn't my intention. It's just the word my dictionaries tell me for somebody not telling the truth with intent or due to lack of information.

I'm not out on some smear campaign and I am just saying what does happen by ALL of the big players, not just you specifically.

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Maybe.

Or just stop whining and giving up yourself and join a bigger airport in the US (easy and good for practice) like La Guardia or Ft. Lauderdale or Kansas City if you really feel not able to choose one of the bigger ones like Manchester, Seattle or Barcelona.

I'm not whining, I'm making a point.  Why do I and, lets be frank, the majority of users, have to be content with the status quo where we pay our £, $ or Euros and don't get the experience we want while others do?

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Please understand I'm not on this list for you anymore.

Damn...

Quote from: J. Oates on June 13, 2011, 10:07:56 PM
Damn bro if you can just ask people to BK and they do it, I think you've pretty much mastered Airwaysim :p

Apologies :)

I offered him free cookies.

Just kidding. We skyped and due to our failed Japan strategy he tries something that's, funny enough, main part of this topic. Joining an airport with a very well established airline lately and see what happens. :)

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 10:06:25 PM
Your opening post doesn't include a single argument. Sigmas's professional and smart answer with arguments was finished with a "I still think.." by your side.

Maybe you should start to give reasons about your idea? At the moment there's still nothing one can discuss.

My original post was does anyone agree if it is a good idea to be able to borrow money to buy an aircraft and use the aircraft as a security.
Then I said "Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft."
Then dan380 said"He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place."
which is exactly what I meant.

Cmon lads stop this silly crap... lets all disagree to disagree, no more guys, were all close on here lets not make it uncomfortable, we have a close net of people on here so I for one would like to keep it like this.

:) come on for love of Aviation!

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 10:09:47 PM
Europe isn't the point, the point is the high demand short haul flights.

Nooo! It's the fact shorter routes, even with less pax, are better than far away ones with more pax!

QuoteWell, they were almost all bought new.

As my fleet. So what's the problem?

QuoteBecause a large player such as your good self will appear at a big airport and dominate it.

Nope. The top30 airports can host 2 or 3 very big airlines or much more smaller ones. If you act a bit smart out of Chicago or even Dulles it's nearly impossible you get bankrupt.

QuoteI had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

Sounds strange. B767-300ER and 400ER as well as B777 should able to compete good with DC-10. However, just able to conjecture about what happend and why.

QuoteNot quite sure how this is related to anything.

You blame good players for good at AWS. It's just fair if we could blame your for things you are good at :D

QuoteHow?

Oops. The sentence is unfinished. I spend a lot of time in the forums while I was in the Demo and Beginner game world.

QuoteI suspect you may be in the minority to that degree of micromanagement.

I'm sure I'm in minority. But that's a key to success. I'm not going to blame people that just want to have a bit of fast fun. I do this in other games or things I'm not this successful, too.

QuoteI'm not whining, I'm making a point.  Why do I and, lets be frank, the majority of users, have to be content with the status quo where we pay our £, $ or Euros and don't get the experience we want while others do?

While this is not the fault of the gamers, it's the fault of people that aren't able to achieve their dreams.

It's simply not possible to have a game world of 500 people and 500 people having exactly what they every imagined.

Like everything in life some people are better and some are not this good. But as in all these things you can improve yourself increase your skill and fun if that's what you want.

QuoteDamn...

Send some cookies to my Swiss bank account and maybe we can be friend again. :D

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 10:13:31 PM
My original post was does anyone agree if it is a good idea to be able to borrow money to buy an aircraft and use the aircraft as a security.
Then I said "Ye but i mean borrow it like a house like a mortgage but for an aircraft."
Then dan380 said"He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place."
which is exactly what I meant.

Ok. Now a new game world begins.

I order 700x A330-300 with your suggested feature in the first 24 hours.

Is this what you had in mind?

Quote from: Curse on June 13, 2011, 10:21:45 PM
Ok. Now a new game world begins.

I order 700x A330-300 with your suggested feature in the first 24 hours.

Is this what you had in mind?

You already made that point and I gave a solution, but just in case you didn't understand i'll say it again
As I said if you limit the amounts of funds you can borrow this would not be a problem.

What aircraft you want to buy with the very low loan possibilities you have at the start of a game world? And why buy it and not get a normal loan and lease ten of them?

I just can't imagine how to use this, this is why I ask you what precise situation you had in mind when this idea was posted here by you.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 10:09:47 PM


I had a fleet of B767s and B777s mainly flying long haul from Jo'burg. I was doing very well until said player suddenly appeared with a heap of cheap DC-10s, soon enough by using old and cheap had taken over the big routes (JNB-LHR and the like) and then had the money to make big B777 and A340 orders, from then it was only a matter of time until my routes got filled by him. BK'd.

For your case in MT1, I'd say you are lucky enough already, since the player you've mentioned, according to my poor memory, flying with lots of 747 even he bankrupted once after 911 or something(second time during high fuel price periods because of same reason)
My understanding: you can stop him growing him at first place already, and filling the route you've mentioned is the utmost important.
Also I don't really see the reason of using 767(except 764ER), except 764 other variant cannot make good profit when fuel price is sky high. 777 consumes more fuel and expensive to operate, especially if they are not owned. Eventually the company becomes so vulnerable that like an empty eggshell under the wind - being blown away and broken

So something interest me alot, do you feel your playing skills improved after BKed ?

Alright guys look. I've been here for a fair while and I've played the game from the big airports and the small.
Dave did have a point that, other than the early competition, the big airports tend to quickly develop into one, or sometimes two, big guys. These guys have it easy, and the only difficulty is in prying yourself away from real life to schedule all those planes you keep ordering. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of small airports and different locations.
However, Curse is also correct in that basically he's just playing AirwaySim. That's how it works. He's defeated the competition (or they defeated themselves  :P) and his reward for his good management is being able to become one of the largest airlines in the game. There are several very good manuals on how to create a profitable airline. If you want to start at the big airports, be there from DAY ONE and be prepared to put a lot of effort in those early years.
You will probably have more luck starting from a slightly smaller airport. Brizzle is perhaps a little too small. Do not rush fleet decisions. Make a note of all the aircraft you could buy, with the capacity and range you require, and rule them out one-by-one until you find the most economical aircraft to fit the bill. Out of Bristol, even at full size you will have 2 fleet types at most. Try to keep to one.

Either way. We don't need anymore long-winded aimless debates.

The exact situation is midway through the game when an aircraft is struggling they can only borrow around$500000 which is not even enough to lease a short haul jet aircraft eg. B737-800 or A320-200. Where as with a security they can borrow up to $25000000(25 million). With this they could buy a used 737 orA320. One aircraft could make the difference for a struggling airline.
I accept ypur point that it may make the game too easy but you would not ave to take up the loan. Nobody would be forcing you.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 11:00:51 PM
The exact situation is midway through the game when an aircraft is struggling they can only borrow around$500000 which is not even enough to lease a short haul jet aircraft eg. B737-800 or A320-200. Where as with a security they can borrow up to $25000000(25 million). With this they could buy a used 737 orA320. One aircraft could make the difference for a struggling airline.
I accept ypur point that it may make the game too easy but you would not ave to take up the loan. Nobody would be forcing you.

But it does force it upon you. If all of your competitors are doing it, you have the choice of doing it or being driven to bankruptcy.

But if you can be sucesful withought it then no.

Quote from: dobbs1996 on June 13, 2011, 11:08:19 PM
But if you can be sucesful withought it then no.

You can be successful, but not as successful.

Since AWS has finite demand, being able to schedule just 1 plane before you is a huge profit advantage, a huge route image advantage, and a huge marketshare advantage.

Long story short, your competitor will bankrupt you unless you do the same, and not only that, you do it first.

Quote from: kone_alta on June 13, 2011, 10:50:16 PM
For your case in MT1, I'd say you are lucky enough already, since the player you've mentioned, according to my poor memory, flying with lots of 747 even he bankrupted once after 911 or something(second time during high fuel price periods because of same reason)
My understanding: you can stop him growing him at first place already, and filling the route you've mentioned is the utmost important.
Also I don't really see the reason of using 767(except 764ER), except 764 other variant cannot make good profit when fuel price is sky high. 777 consumes more fuel and expensive to operate, especially if they are not owned. Eventually the company becomes so vulnerable that like an empty eggshell under the wind - being blown away and broken

So something interest me alot, do you feel your playing skills improved after BKed ?

I think somewhere we are getting wires crossed. In the previous MT world (the one before the current one) I was Karoo Air (and always have been) and did go BK because of a big fleet of B747s.

That is why I planned to avoid them in the current MT3 world but I got pushed out by yourself IIRC when you made a very big A340 order and duplicated my routes.

I don't know if my playing skills have improved. I don't get the chance to try them again in a similar place.

I don't mean you can schedule it before you buy it just up to a month before delivery like it currently is.

Quote from: Dan380 on June 13, 2011, 08:14:35 AM
He means using the aircraft as a security in the loan to buy it in the first place. It's not the same.  :P

However, thats not what he had said...

he said buy the plane and then use it as securities, which is how it is now. He should have originally been more clear.

Quote from: Dave4468 on June 13, 2011, 11:16:22 PM
I think somewhere we are getting wires crossed. In the previous MT world (the one before the current one) I was Karoo Air (and always have been) and did go BK because of a big fleet of B747s.

That is why I planned to avoid them in the current MT3 world but I got pushed out by yourself IIRC when you made a very big A340 order and duplicated my routes.

I don't know if my playing skills have improved. I don't get the chance to try them again in a similar place.

We've met in MT2 and current MT4 instead as I remember  ;) to be honest at that time (MT2) you were holding various fleet group like DC-9, DC-10, 737, 747 classics,744, etc. But the most fatal factor is the 747SP you were operating with, high fuel burn yet low capacity.(remember the 4X DC10 flying in MT2? It really save alot  ;) )

For MT4, I think we were playing in different approach and our CI rised at the same rate, however you started having other fleet group while I keep on sticking with my old DC10, and finally phrasing it out with A330/340/77E step by step. Those 21x346HGW doesnt really cutting as much cost as single fleet group. . Moreover as what you've said, South Africa is not a place for shorthaul flight(likewise in Cape town, the domestic demand is so slim that I wont open a base there). if you get all sorts of planes to fill the demand at first place, you can hardly lease the second longhaul plane which means slower growth and behind your competitors.

Maybe I am those annoying player you've mentioned; exploiting all the profitable routes in FAJS, duplicate flying your routes, etc. But if you take the right step and not overdoing, I guess it will be another scenario.  ;)

Quote from: kone_alta on June 14, 2011, 01:26:48 AM
We've met in MT2 and current MT4 instead as I remember  ;) to be honest at that time (MT2) you were holding various fleet group like DC-9, DC-10, 737, 747 classics,744, etc. But the most fatal factor is the 747SP you were operating with, high fuel burn yet low capacity.(remember the 4X DC10 flying in MT2? It really save alot  ;) )

That wasn't me. I only ever operate as Karoo Air from Jo'burg. MT4 is the only time I've met you. And I've never flown 747SP. MT3 I was the only successful airline to operate from Jo'burg, you were not there. I ran a fleet of B744, B744ER, B75s, B767s and B777s. I got killed by the B747s, I was too impatient to wait longer to get B77Ws. I also tried running a base at FACT.

Quote from: kone_alta on June 14, 2011, 01:26:48 AM
For MT4, I think we were playing in different approach and our CI rised at the same rate, however you started having other fleet group while I keep on sticking with my old DC10, and finally phrasing it out with A330/340/77E step by step. Those 21x346HGW doesnt really cutting as much cost as single fleet group. . Moreover as what you've said, South Africa is not a place for shorthaul flight(likewise in Cape town, the domestic demand is so slim that I wont open a base there). if you get all sorts of planes to fill the demand at first place, you can hardly lease the second longhaul plane which means slower growth and behind your competitors.

All I remember is I had a few B767s and possibly a B777 and you seemed to have gone dormant, I was happily chugging along filling up long haul African destinations with the B767s and adding a B772 to LHR when I got one. All of a sudden you just turned up with a handful of DC-10s, took LHR by storm and then the massive orders came... Not a mistake I'm going to make again.

Dobbs,

Im a realitively new player here (about a month). I've built up an airline that clears about 1.5 million a week out of koala lumpur, with three airlines starting up at my airport about the same time. Thats a fair bit of money in the late 1960's (Jet age scienario). My biggest problem right now is that other airlines that are much less profitable then mine are still in buisness, and take up slots that I might otherwise be able to use. If the game was more difficult, there would probably still be slots available for me to fly into london or Hong Kong and compete with those airlines. As it stands, those airlines dont have to be that careful about not flying unprofitable routes because of the incredible profit margins that good routes offer in AWS.

I think the feature of loaning on aircraft that your going to buy, with a rate based on the credit-worthiness of the customer would be fantastic. That being said, untill the profit margins in airwaysim are reduced to more rational levels (through increased landing/airport fees to reflect reality), this feature would only improve the dominate position of the large airlines that use frequency to dominate short haul routes and as a consequence slot block at the largest airports.

Steve