Hey guys,
I have a very special problem ??? Nope, not my fetish for free candy vans and tape, that's something I can handle ;D
The situation;
I would like to make some agreement with some other airline. I want slots and a route sharing agreement (75:25 for me) and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.
However, if I translate this (as far as it is possible to me) into English, it sounds like I want to rape his sisters and sell them to a cruel third world dictator. In return sami wouldn't be very amused with this and, as it happened to a friend, ban him for bullying and blackmail.
Now I'm curious: How can I avoid this? How would English natives formulate such things in this typical British/American always-extremely-friendly tone? And, mainly, how do you guys negotiate in here with things like this?
Or is this far beyond negotiation possibility and I should just do my thing?
Don't get me wrong, but I noticed several times just translating things doesn't prevent from making people angry or scare or insult them :-\
Thanks in advance :)
Simple. Do not do such deals.
I am not very fond of such things....
In the real world, they call this collusion and price fixing. What happens if airline #3 enters the market and starts flying your route? What if they put 150% capacity on the route and take the lion's share of the demand? Does that mean your invading the other guy's base?
Quote from: sami on May 20, 2011, 01:42:03 PM
Simple. Do not do such deals.
I am not very fond of such things....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQqiuynMwCQ
Quote from: LemonButt on May 20, 2011, 01:47:48 PM
In the real world, they call this collusion and price fixing. What happens if airline #3 enters the market and starts flying your route? What if they put 150% capacity on the route and take the lion's share of the demand? Does that mean your invading the other guy's base?
This will not happen in my scenario.
I'm disappointed. So many people that complain of rude German speech and behaviour and nobody who wants to help somebody who will increase his abilities. Ts Ts Ts... ;)
But this sort of thing happens all the time in real life. Like BA and Virgin agreeing to put up the Fuel levy at the same time and if I remember correctly loads of airlines were done in a cargo system where they all basically charged the same price as each other.
Quote from: LostInBKK on May 20, 2011, 02:03:10 PM
But this sort of thing happens all the time in real life. Like BA and Virgin agreeing to put up the Fuel levy at the same time and if I remember correctly loads of airlines were done in a cargo system where they all basically charged the same price as each other.
Your right but Virgin reported BA for price fixing and they got away scott free and BA ended up paying a % of their revenue in fines, same as for the cargo carriers the 'whistle blower' got away with it for reoprting the irregularities but the others (including Virgin if I rememebr correctly) got fined.
Quote from: Curse on May 20, 2011, 12:48:33 PM
Hey guys,
I have a very special problem.
The situation;
I would like to make some agreement with some other airline. I want slots and a route sharing agreement (75:25 for me) and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.
Thanks in advance :)
Can't you be happy with your lot? Lets face it in most games you do very well but you always seem to want more and more and dislike it when people stand up to you and say no. As fo rthe route share agreement 75:25 in YOUR favour??? If I was the other airline I'd be telling you to go take a running jump off the nearest tall building :laugh:.
For sure I could be happy with what I have.
But at the end I play this game because it makes fun - for me. If others have fun, too, this is nice and I do a lot to help them to have this fun (you remember? My PM about your airline name?), but my main priority is to increase fun for me.
So now the game world (DotM) is open for how long? 8 ingame month? And all slots are gone. What do you think... how much fun do I have at the moment?
Now to my intention. There are only five good base possibilities in Japan. I would spare the best or second best if the airline based there give me something - so I think 75% market share on this one route is fair if the alternative is some crazy guy putting 70 aircraft on your base and fill up demand to much more routes.
I know this will sound very rude and aggressive to you, but as I said this is not my intention. It's just how things are.
However, sami made clear he don't want such negotiations in any way, so I open my base there and the case is done.
Btw, a small add;
I'd love to start out of a smaller airport and build up a small regional line, connection the country. But this is not possible at the moment at AWS, so I think it's normal to pursuit for more. Here are some impressions, even the described airline isn't very small at the end (to show much more components in the story I decided to increase the airline at the end) https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30655.0.html
Quote from: Curse on May 20, 2011, 02:44:27 PM
For sure I could be happy with what I have.
But at the end I play this game because it makes fun - for me. If others have fun, too, this is nice and I do a lot to help them to have this fun (you remember? My PM about your airline name?), but my main priority is to increase fun for me.
So now the game world (DotM) is open for how long? 8 ingame month? And all slots are gone. What do you think... how much fun do I have at the moment?
Now to my intention. There are only five good base possibilities in Japan. I would spare the best or second best if the airline based there give me something - so I think 75% market share on this one route is fair if the alternative is some crazy guy putting 70 aircraft on your base and fill up demand to much more routes.
I know this will sound very rude and aggressive to you, but as I said this is not my intention. It's just how things are.
However, sami made clear he don't want such negotiations in any way, so I open my base there and the case is done.
Btw, a small add;
I'd love to start out of a smaller airport and build up a small regional line, connection the country. But this is not possible at the moment at AWS, so I think it's normal to pursuit for more. Here are some impressions, even the described airline isn't very small at the end (to show much more components in the story I decided to increase the airline at the end) https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30655.0.html
I agree with your base possibilities in Japan, its very difficult and I would say its probably one of the very few places where you have to do what you have to do to expand. As for slots SAMI has said that there was a reduction (60%) to normal but 12 months in they will increae to 100% and then at year 2 further increases will come in the attempt to keep places like Tokyo and HKG open. You also mentioned regional airlines, I dont know how viable in this game it is, but... I have done it quite successfully in a newer Game World so much so I opened another base and was about to open my third when...I went and Closed down my airlie in error, but it is a doable thing although its slow and challenging, but hey I loved it and will be doing it again once V1.3 is out and running :)
Quote from: Curse on May 20, 2011, 12:48:33 PM
(...) typical :oBritish/American always-extremely-friendly tone? (...)
That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...
About your topic... Why negotiate a 75:25 scenario for you? If you say you
can and
will do this:
Quote from: Curse on May 20, 2011, 12:48:33 PM
and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots.
...then why don't you do it?? Why negotiate when it's more than clear for your opponent that you don't need his agreement to be successful?? That is the exact definition of
bullying /
blackmailing and that should not be tolerated, IMHO.
Quote from: filipebravo on May 20, 2011, 04:42:41 PM
That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...
I mean people here in this forums and based on written English. I know in the real world with words things might be different.
QuoteAbout your topic... Why negotiate a 75:25 scenario for you? If you say you can and will do this:...then why don't you do it?? Why negotiate when it's more than clear for your opponent that you don't need his agreement to be successful?? That is the exact definition of bullying / blackmailing and that should not be tolerated, IMHO.
Again... just because I can doesn't mean I want and will do. If I can make an agreement that gives me slots and market share I can focus on other base airports. Also it's not my target to destroy others. So why not first make some negotiations? However, I'm tired of legitimate myself for things that are obvious.
additionally correct me if i am wrong, but isnt there something in the rule about anti-compettitive behavior, where if YOU INTENTIONALLY PUSH OUT the compettition than well your in violation. Personally my thoughts of you is you are definately bullying and extorting the other airline, and i hope you do flood the market, and loose lots of income doing it and in turn bankrupt your own company, so that 75/25 becomes 00/100 in the other airlines favor.
You are wrong. It's not against the rules if you don't use extremely low prices or use >200% supply etc.
Also I don't think your behaviour in wishing me and my airline everything bad while I just want to find out how to negotiate in a friendly and respectable way with others is very useful. Maybe it was not your intention, but I feel very offended by your post.
Quote from: filipebravo on May 20, 2011, 04:42:41 PM
That's not true. British are naturally agressive. I am portuguese, I lived in UK for 1 year and I can tell you, working in a sales position, I have learned a lot with British. British are commercially agressive! Don't overestimate Germans please...
This is an absolute joke, I am British and lived in the UK for probably around 4 years, and in America for 13 Years and I can tell you that the we (the british) are not "naturally aggressive". Perhaps people you dealt with were sick of immigrants coming into our country and taking decent jobs from decent people.
Extremely, EXTREMELY offensive to me ... sorry mate but thats just unreal
you said " I just want to find out how to negotiate in a friendly and respectable way" but earlier you said " I want slots and a route sharing agreement and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots" So you basically are saying "lets work to gether or i am going to crush his little airline and take the slots anyway" but then are offended when we wish your airline fails , I DONT CARE, because you are threatening to do the same thing to some one else. I am offended by your cocky attitude that you think if you dont get your way you can just take what you want regardless.
Also just because it is not low fares or over capacity doesnt mean you did not violate the rules.
These are excerpts from the rules in the manual:
" In such cases the owners of the existing airlines should keep in mind that coordinated attacks or other uncompetitive ways to use their power as a larger or more dominant airline may be disallowed." You are saying you will use your power and influence to "crush his little airline and take the slots" There is a violation
also deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline.
Well you are TARGETING him if you plan to "crush his little airline"
So yes by you saying you want to shut down some one elses airline if he doesnt do what you want, I wish that if you attemp it that you will fail miserably as will your airline.
Sami am i wrong?
Man calm down!!
You are not even a month into the game and already don't make friends but mess around with long term players. As soon as you get into real games, not such super-dooper protected BW games you will sonly notice how the rabbit is running. Airline market is a tough business, and AWS is still heavily protecting... e.g. would LH and BA target all routes between their hubs...
I nearly got into deep trouble (a ban) for exactly this issue as a pm. The whole point behind this is to allow some harsh negotiating without the danger of being banned for this stuff.
Currenly at a mobile device, otherwise would have said more...
Jona L.
Jona, it doesn't matter how long CXP has been registered because he's plainly right. The fact of the matter is that Sebastian asks for a non-rude message which would prevent you from being banned, which is frankly not possible as constructively proven by this same guy.
You guys fail to understand that this game is not about crushing others and be the sole victor of everything, even as small as individual routes. 99% of those who register here, sign up with the intent to live the dream of finally running their own airline. In contrast from what you believe, this does not per definition include being the biggest, most dominant airline in the game world. It almost seems like you don't enjoy running the actual airline anymore, since you're so determined to crush and beat others that you engage in practices such as "leave the route or I'll unleash my endless powers", which is, in my view, the bottom line here.
Im going to jump in with CXP here. If we could just do extorsion on each other we wouldnt even need to play in the end. The bigger airlines would always have the upperhand anyway. The only way to give big airlines a match ( and make the game more interesting ) is to keep on moving into the bases.
Jona, It doesnt matter how long i have been playing, I paid for my credits just like every one else. And there are rules, just because some one is bigger and been here longer doesnt mean they should be allowed to break them. Also I am the little guy, Why should my enjoyment be ruined because some one doesnt get his way and throws a tantrum intended to "Crush" my airline, and by crush that means Intentionally put my airline out of business, which in and of is self is a violation of the rules, which state "All airlines in AirwaySim must act in a proper and "businesslike" manner" and coordinated attacks or other uncompetitive ways to use their power as a larger or more dominant airline may be disallowed., not to mention "targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline." I am not here to make friends I have plenty thanks, I am here to enjoy the sim. and the reason i have an issue, is next time I could be the little guy who the poster is trying to "crush and take all the slots" from.
by the way i have been in the airline industry for 10 years, I know there are not many protections in the realworld, but if this was the real world, how many of you would in reality have the airlines that you have now, how many of those airlines would still be in existance. Also in the real world, you dont have a little screen that tells you the daily ammount of Pax that want to fly a route in seconds. Fact is this is NOT the real world, and there are restrictions in place to keep it enjoyable for all.
Quote from: CXP211 on May 20, 2011, 10:57:15 PM
you said " I just want to find out how to negotiate in a friendly and respectable way" but earlier you said " I want slots and a route sharing agreement and in return I will not open a base at his airport and damage and/or crush his little airline and get all his slots"
So you basically are saying "lets work to gether or i am going to crush his little airline and take the slots anyway"
No. That is what blackmail is. I want to offer teamwork in a friendly way. But I think it is nice to tell people what consequences are possible. For example I'm based at an airport that can't be used as a base, while the other guy is at an airport that is one of four (or 25%) of possible base airports in our country.
The next point is, I run a huge airline with nearly unlimited financial background and I have lots of time. I accept you can't know both, because you are very new to AirwaySim.
There is no third option like "let's hug each other and sing friendly peace songs". There's just work together or get eaten by the next guy on Darwin's ladder.
"but then are offended when we wish your airline fails"
Yes, because I seriously tried to find a way to work in a friendly way some negotiations out. As you may have noticed I prefer a friendly way and nobody will ever tell you I haven't cancelled routes if a smaller or newer guy/airline asked me to do so. Or do you think I lease out my aircraft in Jet Age #4 very cheap because it's a cool strategy?
No. It's because I like the benefit in working together.
But working together means to find realistic ways. I now have more than 60% market share and will not go back to 50% and disclaim a good base airport and accept some random guy uses my slots but isn't based at my HQ. I'm not mother Therese - what leads us to the fact I will share 75:25, what seems to be a very big problem for you and some others.
Quote, I DONT CARE, because you are threatening to do the same thing to some one else.
No, I searched for alternatives to avoid exactly this - destroying or damaging another airline, while the most easiest way would be to do exactly this.
QuoteI am offended by your cocky attitude that you think if you dont get your way you can just take what you want regardless.
Ah. The guy who insults others here is "offended" (Why? We don't share any game worlds and I haven't directed this thread to you) by my "cocky attitude", what was simply a friendly request for ideas from native English speakers.
I don't know how things are handled at your home, but I was teached to ask for help if I feel myself unsure or if I want to get some more sentiments on a topic.
Quote"There is a violation"
To lay down the paragraph like you do would mean a larger airline is not allowed to act agains a smaller airline until the smaller airline gets bigger than the first airline. This doesn't make sense in a competive game and, in contrast to you, I play this game a bit longer and already had fights in the past. Fortunately I won them all and there happened some really massacres.
But nice to see at least one other person has read the manual. A big plus for you on this.
Quote"Well you are TARGETING him if you plan to "crush his little airline"
As long as there's no city based demand it is hard to fly other routes out of smaller domestic airports. :)
QuoteSo yes by you saying you want to shut down some one elses airline
Again, this is a logical consequence and nothing one must explain seperately.
However, I'm a bit surprised some starter that wasn't involved in some AWS games and knows the mechanics etc. is talking with such a big mouth. Hopefully you not only read the manual but also my FAQ. If not I'm sure you and your airline will be the one that fail hard... like many - or most - others here.
Edit:
Quote from: Quinoky on May 20, 2011, 11:21:18 PM
Jona, it doesn't matter how long CXP has been registered because he's plainly right.
It does matter. Does he face slot problems in the beginner games? Or other serious AWS business? Have you ever see my talking about Nuclear Physics? No.
QuoteThe fact of the matter is that Sebastian asks for a non-rude message which would prevent you from being banned, which is frankly not possible as constructively proven by this same guy.
Nope. I asked how to describe it nice and show somebody that it is _no blackmail_, but just to name the consequences. Exactly the same consequences that will occur if I don't write any message.
QuoteYou guys fail to understand that this game is not about crushing others
The game is about fun. There was a time we shared the same type of fun - running big airlines. This fun is restricted by slots and/or routes, but in the airports we used to start mainly slots. So there are two possiblities: Fly to Helsinki and force sami with a gun to edit the database for more slots... or get a better share on the already build in slots. I remind me slots were often a big topic in our skype talkings.
Quote99% of those who register here, sign up with the intent to live the dream of finally running their own airline. In contrast from what you believe, this does not per definition include being the biggest, most dominant airline in the game world.
No problem. I didn't even run to sami when some competitor tried to pull me out of bases. It's business and it's not too hard to survive.
Or does this 'Airline XY BKd'-thread never exist in your internal forums? Where everybody is happy about slots at airport XY and an competitor less? I'm just curious, because you sound like you love competition at the moment.
QuoteIt almost seems like you don't enjoy running the actual airline anymore, since you're so determined to crush and beat others that you engage in practices such as "leave the route or I'll unleash my endless powers", which is, in my view, the bottom line here.
And because I'm so into bashing others I killed Leadfoot in JA#4 a long time ago or went after him when he opened his base at Seattle. Oh, wait, I didn't. Damn. And I was nearly convinced I'm the a*** you try to make me thing I am.
for one my airline is doing just fine. now you said "no thats what blackmail is: well you are issuing an ultimatum, do what i want or i will crush you. PERIOD you ARE blackmailing and extorting the little airline, You even made the topic of the thread "Bullying, Blackmail etc, how to avoid" so you know you are bullying and blackmailing. and sami said the easiest way to do it is DONT DO IT. So what you can not open another base with your unlimited resources and time? by saying you will crush him and take his routs is still a violation you are purposefully targeting this person. so we have to agree to dissagree, you hope my airline fails, well its doing good any way i dont care, And if you choose to "Crush the little guy" well than I hope the routes you try to open in his markets fail worse, especially since he is already established on those routes. So why is it that you must crush him and take his slots, You cant use other slots? doesnt he have a right to those slots? dont you think those slots are just as important to the little guy as they are to you. I would not give up my best slots just so some big airline can come in and make more money while i take crappy slots, have to pay money when changing slots etc. YES it costs if i need to change routes, thats Why i plan them carefully in the first place, So if it were me aginst you, I would say bring it, and i hope you fail miserably. But i cant speak for the other guy.
I've refrained from posting up 'til now, as not to get banned. But a few things must now be said.
CXP I don't think anyone is saying your point is less valid because you're new, just that you haven't seen the full workings on AWS so maybe you still hold an optimistic view of what things are like in the manual.
I've been bullied out of my routes and HQ in a previous game world back when ABCBA routing was allowed by some guy called Crazybernie. There are people like that in the game but he was never the best. It wasn't fun.
You say you are here to have fun, well you seem to be getting quite upset from the tone of your posts so maybe you should step away from the PC and review this in fresh light.
And I'd call for maybe a lock on the thread (not telling anyone how to do their jobs or blackmailing them :o ) as this will escalate soon.
Does anyone know how to remove red wine stains from carpet? I've tried everything and can't seem to get the stains out. Please advise.
Curse, I would say that simply killing the guy in the other hub will work better: it will take a long time but in the end you'll have 100% of the demand and IF anyone comes on the same route, you can beat the hell out of him/her without asking permission to anyone! :)
Regards
Quote from: LemonButt on May 20, 2011, 11:53:36 PM
Does anyone know how to remove red wine stains from carpet? I've tried everything and can't seem to get the stains out. Please advise.
If you have Vanish Oxi Action where you are then that works. It's like a spray foam you leave on for ten minutes then sponge up.
Alex thank you for the respectful post, much appreciated. I do have to say i often times play devils advocate and stand up for the little guy (heck i was a union rep previously) But the reason i take it a bit more serious is once this is done i am ready to move on to one of the bigger games. and if you read some of the posts by the original poster, He bashes practically every airline. How about his post where he requests "that all other airlines flying to haneda have their slots revoked" well its that kinda thinking that irks me, he thinks he is the biggest baddest thing out there, and I hope he fails for once to knock him down a peg. There is also a difference betweeing being bullied out of certian routes, and Having some one intentionally shutting down your operation to take the slots. This guy is saying either do what i say or im going to put you out of business to the other airline. that shows he has an intent on violating the anti compettitive rules. And more importantly it says alot about him as a person, (cant say whay i really want to) if he is just willing to be a _________ to other people.
In response to cures, you say just because you dont have 200% of the demand and undersale tickets, your right you are not violating that but you are voilating deliberately targeting many/all routes of a single airline are considered unfair competition, especially if the "target" is a new / small airline You said it your self you are going to try and crush the other airline, basically so you can have all the routes, well, that is an anti copettitive attack.
as for curse you said to read your FAQ
what FAQ?
Quote from: CXP211 on May 20, 2011, 11:44:22 PMYou even made the topic of the thread "Bullying, Blackmail etc, how to avoid" so you know you are bullying and blackmailing
Yeah, because, as I said a hundred times, I will not blackmail somebody. Doesn't avoid mean not to do anything? Isn't it the exact translation of the German word "vermeiden"?
The topic just says I know what bullying and blackmail is and I will not sound in the PM like I will do so.
Quoteand sami said the easiest way to do it is DONT DO IT.
And this is exactly where this topic could be ended. But no, some smart guys like you showed up and started some stupid flame war.
QuoteSo what you can not open another base with your unlimited resources and time?
Because AirwaySim has STATIC demand. And in Japan the possibilitys for good base airports are extremely limited. As I pointed out, there are three to five good possibilities - what mainly means no night curfews.
In AWS it is not possible to open bases everywhere in the world, so I'm sticking to my home country. Something the manual explains by the way.
Quoteso we have to agree to dissagree,
Or simply don't say anything if you can't help in the topic.
Quoteyou hope my airline fails,
Stop laying words in my mouth. I said your airline will fail if you don't prepare. To be honest I really don't care about you as a individuum or your airline.
QuoteAnd if you choose to "Crush the little guy" well than I hope the routes you try to open in his markets fail worse, especially since he is already established on those routes.
I see, you haven't read the FAQ and other helpful threads until now. Otherwise you would know better.
QuoteSo why is it that you must crush him and take his slots, You cant use other slots?
No, all other slots are gone. You will notice this very fast if you participate in a full game world and try to fly or base at a bigger airport. There are "my" slots and the slots of other airlines. The only possibility to increase "my" slots is to take them away from others. And this is only possible with competition.... or wait until somebody is bored and leaves.
Quotedoesnt he have a right to those slots?
Oh, for sure. But I would love it more to see those slots in my hand. You know. Making him happy doesn't make automatically me happy.
QuoteI would not give up my best slots just so some big airline can come in and make more money while i take crappy slots,
You don't get the point.
At the moment we both fight on the route. This consumes a lot slots at my airport and a lot slots at his airport and always binds many aircraft to those routes. If we could find some solution we both could use bigger aircraft and use our slots for other routes.
This would gain profit for both of us.
Quotehave to pay money when changing slots etc.
Not really. It's not about a major airport, so slot fees are small and he also must not pay any antimonopoly fee.
QuoteSo if it were me aginst you, I would say bring it, and i hope you fail miserably. But i cant speak for the other guy.
And then? My HQ would make money and my base too, but you would have problems with competition.
So maybe you have shown to me who is the hardest guy, but have you won? No.
Basing at an airport other people can base always weakens your position extremely as long as you are not able to control all the slots. This game mechanic wasn't my idea but I must deal with it.
you can always open another base cant you? if not well you have been around long enough to know what limits there are on opening bases and could have chosen to make your home base some where else.
Quote from: EYguy on May 20, 2011, 11:54:22 PM
Curse, I would say that simply killing the guy in the other hub will work better: it will take a long time but in the end you'll have 100% of the demand and IF anyone comes on the same route, you can beat the hell out of him/her without asking permission to anyone! :)
Regards
That's the probem! I don't want to kill others, I prefer some solution that works for both sides! If I would be some ruthless guy there wouldn't be a thread like this!
Or do you think I just have fun to argue here about such kindergarden things? Can't use my time better? ... and no, you must not answer on this :)
At the moment we both fight on the route. This consumes a lot slots at my airport and a lot slots at his airport and always binds many aircraft to those routes. If we could find some solution we both could use bigger aircraft and use our slots for other routes.
This would gain profit for both of us.
Finally a point we agree on.
But as far as blackmail, You said previously you gave him the "option" of doing what you say, or "crushing" him. that IS BLACKMAIL.
Now you could start your base at any airport in the world at the begining of the game well you chose that airport so well you live with that choice, try starting the game a different country with room to expand such as the US or EU you have been around long enough to know that certian countries or regions have limited expansion possibilities when you first choin the game.
Sebastian, listen.. Domination is one thing, competition is something completely different. I think it is important to distinguish between the two, since you might have misinterpreted my intentions. I love competition as much as you do, it's what makes this game as fun as it is. I don't want to sit on my own in a huge airport filling the demand like a machine. It's great to see how some strategies work better than others, just to name an example. This is also why we have a Bankrupt Thread, to simply keep each other updated about the world's progress. Until this point, I think actually enjoying the airline still fully applies (and we have discussed this many times over Skype, indeed).
Domination, though, is where things get more tricky. This is what I mean with "enjoying to crush others" or, as you put it yourself, "crushing a little airline". This simply implies the intent to solely bring others down, not enjoying the airline as it is. I'm sorry if you did not intend to put it this way, but to me, it seemed like you did. Please, remember that I do not share CXP's attitude towards you in particular (this is very important), I am just concerned that the way you play AirwaySim has differed from the times at Skype that you referred to (i.e. from competitive to dominating).
Respectfully, how about we leave any more postings for now guys.
I think you've both had your final says and have both calmed down a bit and seen some of each others points.
If you want to continue the debate, there is tomorrow, or sometime in another thread.
Quote from: CXP211 on May 20, 2011, 11:59:53 PMand if you read some of the posts by the original poster, He bashes practically every airline.
Yeah. You never see me hanging around helping others like here (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html) or here (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30782.0.html) or maybe here (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30773.0.html).
I'm just here to bash small guys like you, kill pets and sell pictures of naked clowns to criminal East Block clans.
Quotehe thinks he is the biggest baddest thing out there,
You don't know what I think. And I'm not thinking I'm the biggest fish here, but on the other hand I know about my abilities.
Quotethat shows he has an intent on violating the anti compettitive rules.
That's wrong and I would please you stop saying this. I told you already I'm not going especially after competition - and I never have. But if I open a base I do my normal scheduling mode and for sure some of the routes are already flown by this other guy. So doing something because it's the only way of game mechanics doesn't mean it's an evil idea to kill somebodys work.
QuoteAnd more importantly it says alot about him as a person
Hui. Even people like Quinoky or Jona L. can't they what kind of person am I and they skyped with me for years. But you can? That's very cool. Are you able to move to Europe? I'm searching somebody with a magic eye for my company in 2-3 years and if you are as good as this guy in the TV series "Lie to me", I'll have you!
Quotewell, that is an anti copettitive attack.
Evidence? Don't think too long about. I studied law, I'm familar with laws and what they intend.
Quoteas for curse you said to read your FAQ
what FAQ?
The one that is announced big in this forum:
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30042.0.html
Because I like to crush noobs I thought it's a clever idea to help them and make them stronger ;D
Edit:
Quote
Now you could start your base at any airport in the world at the begining of the game well you chose that airport so well you live with that choice, try starting the game a different country with room to expand such as the US or EU you have been around long enough to know that certian countries or regions have limited expansion possibilities when you first choin the game.
There is room for expansion. The consequences for other airlines are pointed out enough and everybody playing this game knows them.
Also I'm normally based at Los Angeles. You are invited to join next game world and see yourself if I'm the bad guy or not. No offense, yeah? No bullying. No threat. I know you intend things wrong very fast, so please accept it's just an information and invitation.
I like bananas because they have no bones.
Quote from: LemonButt on May 21, 2011, 12:21:12 AM
I like bananas because they have no bones.
Why are bananas curved?
I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by several others here - it doesn't matter how you say it, what you want to do is unfair. Using your power and size to try and push a smaller airline (or even equal size airline for that matter) out of a market is anticompetitive.
Any deals done between players should not be done out of fear that another player may take it upon themselves to destroy their airline (and game).
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 12:22:41 AM
Why are bananas curved?
I don't know. But I do know that the curvature of the banana is regulated by the European Union. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/world/europe/12iht-food.4.17771299.html
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 12:13:12 AM
This simply implies the intent to solely bring others down, not enjoying the airline as it is. I'm sorry if you did not intend to put it this way, but to me, it seemed like you did.
What's next? Taking the free candy van joke at the start as a serious thing and send the police after me?
Again, if my intention was just to kill some airline, I will not going to open a thread about how to avoid this. Simply this fact should be evidence enough to make everything clear. But no, we discuss and argue and discuss because either I have written it in a very misunderstand way or some people can't get the point.
But nice to see even close AWS friends think I'm going stick at nothing. Maybe I should really start to act this way, I'm absolutely sure it would make life much easier for me. Not for others but as I pointed out it seems even you don't think I care about them. I'm very sad about this.
Curse. thanks for adding the link. And i will be the first to say it perhaps i am wrong. And maybe its just the way you come off (and thats the problem with forums in general there is no tone and inflection so you can never tell) As far as evidence your study of law is not relevent. If what you said was he had to do what you say or you would intentioanlly crush him, leads me to believe that you were hell bent on domination. If that is not the case than my appologies. But my question to you is, If you know you are limited in expansion and limited in opening other bases from that country, than why do you do it? as you say you have been around a while why base an airline in a country that offers no room for expansion. Now in your defense if the little guy has been around as long as you have, I say feel free and go at it because after a year he should know better. But my whole issue was you issuing an ultimatum to the little guy saying do what i say or ill crush you. That really is kinda snide and wrong. I say go ahead, use your larger fleet, if he is not smart enough to react to the dynamics that becomes his problem. But also bear in mind that Larger aircraft also cost more money. I dont know if there is a way you can Lease some of your large aircraft to him at a deal he cant refuse, but that might be a better comprimise. Now i am not sure where you are. and there may be some sultural misunderstandings. In the future just go on and steadily build as you see fit, either he will adapt or he will fail. but telling some one you have two options 1. work with me (do what i say) 2. pay the price (i will crush you) is blackmail. if you just go on and expand in a normal manner than go ahead and do it. but don't do it just to push the other guy out and take his slots. thats all.
What's next? Taking the free candy van joke at the start as a serious thing and send the police after me?
No i wouldnt do that , but I do find this post rather offensive as something similar to this happened to my sister when we were children. and i am not going to flame you, i know you were joking. just please be a bit more considerate when posting things as such. And while i know you where joking this may be why I may have made some heated character attacks, And i appologise i do not know you but you have made multiple jokes in regards to this which is a bit of a touchy subject in my family
Quote from: Curse on May 21, 2011, 12:27:21 AM
What's next? Taking the free candy van joke at the start as a serious thing and send the police after me?
Again, if my intention was just to kill some airline, I will not going to open a thread about how to avoid this. Simply this fact should be evidence enough to make everything clear. But no, we discuss and argue and discuss because either I have written it in a very misunderstand way or some people can't get the point.
But nice to see even close AWS friends think I'm going stick at nothing. Maybe I should really start to act this way, I'm absolutely sure it would make life much easier for me. Not for others but as I pointed out it seems even you don't think I care about them. I'm very sad about this.
The free candy van is actually very amusing. :P
I'm not saying that your intention per definition is to kill some airline. But the fact remains that you take advantage of your airline's size to push other airlines out of the market out of fear that you'd otherwise crush their airlines. That's where my concern started. Really, Sebastian, don't take this as such that I'm thinking you're an ass, because you're not. I am, again, just concerned that you've moved from being competitive to being dominating while it was so much more fun this long time ago.
Quinoky, Thank you for your post, I guess that is about a 99% nicer way of what i am trying to say.
However please folks can we please stop the pedofile candy van stuff i know some of you think its funny but it hits close to home with my family.
Quote from: CXP211 on May 21, 2011, 12:29:38 AM
And maybe its just the way you come off (and thats the problem with forums in general there is no tone and inflection so you can never tell)
Funny. A thread to avoid conflicts because I sometimes sound harsh turned into some massacre because some people feel offended. What an irony.
QuoteAs far as evidence your study of law is not relevent.
In my opinion it is. Laws are not just words in a book. It's the way they are interpreted what's important.
Quotehe had to do what you say or you would intentioanlly crush him,
There's simply no alternative in AWS. No cool code sharing or something like that. The normal strategy for most people is just open a base and damage airlines there, intentionally or not. But I thought maybe it is an idea to chat with the guy there, find some solution, work something out. I don't know what all have could happened and I will never know because sami forbid such a message. So I'm going to open a base there and act like I do, like it's described in my guide (not public available but Quinoky, alex, NorgeFly and some others know it) and like I did always and lots of people do.
QuoteIf you know you are limited in expansion and limited in opening other bases from that country, than why do you do it?
I'm tired of (how to say this in a not arrogant and offending way... hm) being CEO of a bigger US airline that sometimes has good market share at Los Angeles.
My last try was in a Test Game with Atlanta, but it was even more easier and slots run out as well.
So I don't like being based in Europe and I knew impressive airlines out of Japan and I like B747-400D, so I thought it would be a good idea to base there. The expansion is also not limited, so you can base at airports that aren't very well, but there are some airports (Osaka, Fukuoka, Sapparo, Naha, Narita, later 1-2 more) that are very good domestic and international bases. Unfortunately much more people than I thought had the same idea to base in Japan - I started with 6 competitors, but one is already gone (I haven't done anything!).
Quoteas you say you have been around a while why base an airline in a country that offers no room for expansion. Now in your defense if the little guy has been around as long as you have, I say feel free and go at it because after a year he should know better. But my whole issue was you issuing an ultimatum to the little guy saying do what i say or ill crush you.
Maybe little guy isn't the right word. These guys (yeah, in reality they are three at different airports) have a bigger market and slot share than my competitors out of Haneda directly and more aircraft as well. I would never crush somebody, no offense, that plays parallel in a Beginner World or just joined AWS. In such cases I normally write a PM, say hello and ask if he needs help, because I'm tired of all those guys that fail and fail and fail again.
Quotebut telling some one you have two options 1. work with me (do what i say) 2. pay the price (i will crush you) is blackmail.
I know this sounds rude, this is because I started this thread. I know the options AWS offers, but I like to find a solution for all sides, so I hoped to find somebody here that has the absolutely ultimate formulation.
It would be no problem to say what I want to say but in a friendly and not offensive tone in German, but it is a very small way to tell people "consequences" and not blackmail them in the same second, so as I told I better asked for help.
Is it weird that I don't remember the last time I brushed my teeth? I know it's been less than 24 hours, but I couldn't tell you exactly when I did it last.
Curse, Thank you for the explination, and i understand the language differences. if you were intentionally trying to push some small guy with 50 planes out that would be an issue, but the way you are describing it now this is not the case. this is a fairly substantial airline that maybe didnt make the right choices and you are just simply expanding. And since i got this thread so off course maybe i can help put it back on topic. I can see why sammi prohibited you from sending that message it would in effect be blackmail. But you could send a message, and say something along the lines of "Hey you might see that XXX airport is running out of slots, What would you think of combining those two md-90's on the XXX route and using one dc-10, it will give you the same capacity and open up more slots for expansion" he might say "no buzz off" and in which case you expand as you can. As far as I can tell you werent slot hogging like some guy in my game did when kansai opened up (he had A300's departing practically every 5 min between Kansai and Narita) so that is my advice on phrasing it to the other airline, Here is OUR problem, This is the Solution I reccomend to help us both. It is the consequence that is the problem. leave out the "if you dont than i will be forced to expand and crush you" that is where everyones problem is.
by the way i can see you intentiaonlly try to help new people. so publically i will appologise 1 for any personal comments, and 2 for perhaps a misunderstanding of your intentions.
Quote from: LemonButt on May 21, 2011, 12:46:30 AM
Is it weird that I don't remember the last time I brushed my teeth? I know it's been less than 24 hours, but I couldn't tell you exactly when I did it last.
That reminds me of the Galaponesian Redbutt Beardape, who, contrary to popular belief, actually prefers pears over bananas. It is said that they stack the pear-leftovers to remember when they have last brushed their teeth.
On a more general note: the world is going to end today anyway, so why not all get along while it lasts, aye? ;)
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 01:09:23 AM
That reminds me of the Galaponesian Redbutt Beardape, who, contrary to popular belief, actually prefers pears over bananas. It is said that they stack the pear-leftovers to remember when they have last brushed their teeth.
On a more general note: the world is going to end today anyway, so why not all get along while it lasts, aye? ;)
Little known fact: the band "Finger Eleven" was originally called "Rainbow Butt Monkeys" after the monkey with the rainbow colored butt. True story.
Guys, cool down or we'll have to take care of this the old way... Please... All the parties step down a little bit the tone of this discussion, ok?
Quote from: CXP211 on May 21, 2011, 12:57:00 AMleave out the "if you dont than i will be forced to expand and crush you" that is where everyones problem is.
+a very large number
Making a deal with someone else isn't some kind of evil sinful thing which should never be done, rather it is a fact of life in AWS and a way to improve EVERYONE's gameplay.
This is how I would phrase it, in exact wording:
Hey XXXXX,
As you probably know, Haneda is out of slots right now. We are currently competing on a route XXX-Haneda, and I was wondering if we could come up with an agreement on how to divide up the route fairly to better utilize slots and aircraft. I personally feel that dividing up the route by capacity, perhaps 75% for me and 25% for you would be a fair agreement. The lack of competition would increase both of our load factors and allow us to use our aircraft and slots on other, more strategic routes. I hope that this partnership can be extended so we can work together to dominate Japan.
Cheers,
Curse
Now this works well in my opinion, and I will explain exactly why:
As you probably know, Haneda is out of slots right now. Gives a reason for contact, and some background information about what you want
We are currently competing on a route XXX-Haneda, and I was wondering if we could come up with an agreement on how to divide up the route fairly to better utilize slots and aircraft. Explains what you want in general terms. It shows that you are open for compromise, rather than trying to shove your specific deal down their throat
I personally feel that dividing up the route by capacity, perhaps 75% for me and 25% for you would be a fair agreement. Not-so-subtly hints at EXACTLY what you want. However, since you have already said that you are willing to be flexible, perhaps you would go to 70%-30%. But it gives a general idea of numbers that you are thinking
The lack of competition would increase both of our load factors and allow us to use our aircraft and slots on other, more strategic routes.Explains why the idea is good for your competitior
I hope that this partnership can be extended so we can work together to dominate Japan.It shows that while you are willing to work together, you also wish to control the Japanese market. This contains a subtly woven in threat, but it's not intimidating, rather it is presented like another reason that the deal is good.
The trick is to be as friendly as possible, and let them win all the small battles, because as long as you get what you want, giving up little things isn't going to make that big of a difference. If you aren't willing to make these concessions, you should rethink how important this deal is to you.
Ah, thanks a lot, Bob. That's exactly what I wanted and I'll send it this way, maybe asking sami before :) If I ever can help you or do you a favour, don't hesitate.
I also like the idea from CXP with offering some aircraft or so as present what should it make more fair for the other guy.
I'm also very happy most misunderstandings are reassessed, of the stove, simplified. I hope one of them is the right word :D And who still thinks I mean ill, no problem, it's a free country.. world... forum... ;)
Quote from: Curse on May 21, 2011, 03:42:04 AMit's a free country.. world... forum... ;)
Well, I'll disagree on that one, and I think Jona L. can back me up ;)
The forum is Sami's, and his word is final, therefore it isn't free. Of course, Sami is a relatively fair and benevolent despot, as despots go.
but that's a topic for another day...
Quote from: J. Oates on May 20, 2011, 07:02:40 PM
This is an absolute joke, I am British and lived in the UK for probably around 4 years, and in America for 13 Years and I can tell you that the we (the british) are not "naturally aggressive". Perhaps people you dealt with were sick of immigrants coming into our country and taking decent jobs from decent people.
Extremely, EXTREMELY offensive to me ... sorry mate but thats just unreal
Woow chill out mate, that wasn't meant to be an offense, more of a compliment. Why are you so offended, haven't you read "I learned a lot with British"? I don't want to turn this into a personal issue, but that argument of immigrants "taking decent jobs from decent people" shows a bit of that aggressiveness I was talking about as your words suggest that immigrants are not considered decent people in UK. Anyway, my comment was about Curse's comparison of German <-> English language, while something could have been lost in translation, in this case it is not valid as bullying and blackmailling in nice words is still bullying and blackmailling... period, no argument possible.